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High-functioning Werewolf
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 Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:17 am
So I know there aren't a lot of Catholic folks here (though I'm aware of a few fallen ones, myself included), but a speech made yesterday by Pope Francisco has got my Facebook all abuzz right now with family and friends weighing in on his statement that when Jesus came to Earth, he came to save absolutely everyone, not just believers.
Pastor Rob Bell (of NOOMA video series fame) published a book a year or so ago titled "Everyone Wins", which is Pastor Bell's explanation of why everyone, regardless of our deeds or our relationship with Christ, is bound for heaven. I remember a few waves made then, mostly in my own church, but it wasn't anything quite like this.
For Protestants, we can always go find another pastor, but Catholic and Orthodox folks can't go find another pope. He is meant to be the direct line to Heaven. Some Catholics believe his word is the infallible law of God. Pope Francisco has already made some pretty serious waves and it seems he's not intent on stopping.
So what does that mean for Catholics? Was every Pope up to now so immersed in Catholic tradition that they failed to hear the messages God was telling them? Does Pope Francisco have something up his sleeve? What does this mean for the future of the Catholic church? Or all of us?
I'm really kind of at a loss. I would like to believe that Hell is a place reserved only for demons, and that God wouldn't throw any of His precious creations away. I so badly want to believe that. I just don't know, but Pope Francisco gives me hope that it's true.
So what do y'all think? Is this nothing to get excited over, or is it something worth debating? Is this going to be a turning point for the way people view Catholics? Or even Christians in general?
Edit: questionable grammar
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:09 am
Ophelias Bathwater So I know there aren't a lot of Catholic folks here (though I'm aware of a few fallen ones, myself included), but a speech made yesterday by Pope Francisco has got my Facebook all abuzz right now with family and friends weighing in on his statement that when Jesus came to Earth, he came to save absolutely everyone, not just believers. Pastor Rob Bell (of NOOMA video series fame) published a book a year or so ago titled "Everyone Wins", which is Pastor Bell's explanation of why everyone, regardless of our deeds or our relationship with Christ, is bound for heaven. I remember a few waves made then, mostly in my own church, but it wasn't anything quite like this. For Protestants, we can always go find another pastor, but Catholic and Orthodox folks can't go find another pope. He is meant to be the direct line to Heaven. Some Catholics believe his word is the infallible law of God. Pope Francisco has already made some pretty serious waves and it seems he's not intent on stopping. So what does that mean for Catholics? Was every Pope up to now so immersed in Catholic tradition that they failed to hear the messages God was telling them? Does Pope Francisco have something up his sleeve? What does this mean for the future of the Catholic church? Or all of us? I'm really kind of at a loss. I would like to believe that Hell is a place reserved only for demons, and that God wouldn't throw any of His precious creations away. I so badly want to believe that because even though my mom is agnostic and may not ever change her mind, she is a good person. I just don't know. But Pope Francisco gives me hope that it's true. So what do y'all think? Is this nothing to get excited over, or is it something worth debating? Is this going to be a turning point for the way people view Catholics? Or even Christians in general? I believe God loves us and after what Christ did, he gave us a chance to be forgiven of our sin. All sins are forgivable except for the blaspheming of the Lord's name. Everybody can change no matter what. If people decide not to and stick to their evil ways, then the evil kingdom of Hell will await for them.
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Alashuko The Fighter Crew
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 5:44 pm
Contradicting Jesus is a bad thing, yes. Without Christ's words/teachings/statements, it's no longer Christian. Quote: Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV) 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Jesus said a few would enter. He doesn't support "universalism" by a long shot. When he gave John the vision (note: this is after he ascended into heaven), Jesus revealed that people would stubbornly refuse to repent—even after suffering through plagues. Not everyone will repent. Quote: Revelation 9:20-21 (NIV) 20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. Yes, our Heavenly Father wants everyone to repent; but the reality is that not everyone will choose to. Repentance and being born-again are necessary if one wants to be with him; Jesus said unless we repent, we would perish (Luke 13:1-5) and unless we're born-again, we won't see the kingdom (John 3:3). Allowing him to wash and sanctify us by his words is what makes us born-again (1 Peter 1:23; Ephesians 5:25-27). There's no getting around it. Biblical Jesus or no Jesus at all, a Jesus that obeyed his Father's will and torah, never speaking or acting against it (though he did speak against the man-made traditions/interpretations of the Pharisees which went against his father's law, i.e. Mark 7:8 ). They might as well come right out and say it: we don't like the Jesus of the bible, we don't believe Jesus' testimony about hell; we worship a Jesus of our own liking/imagination that never spoke about condemnation nor prophesied about individuals refusing to repent. People that refuse Jesus' testimony, as preserved in the text, have this coming to them: Quote: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 (NIV) 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. Shut out of his presence, not saved. There's no gentle way of putting it.
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:26 pm
I don't believe man's words can be compared to the Bible. Man makes mistakes and errors in judgement. Plus, the only mediator between man and God is Jesus Christ, not the pope.
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Posted: Sat May 25, 2013 1:43 am
I agree with everyone so far!
It is true that God wants everyone to be saved and He paid that at the cross already.
The Bible says that “God so loved the world that He gave His only Son” (John 3:16). As well, Titus 3:4 says that His love is for all mankind. According to 2 Pet 3:9 He does not desire any to perish.
But God give us the choice, free-will
The choice to believe in Jesus is the only way to heaven.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
(Mat 7:13-14)-For the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it” .
And Christ even makes it more clear when someone asks him the question of the hour:
“And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He [Christ] said to them, ‘Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out (Luk 13:23-28 ).
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:25 am
I believe the Pope used the term "redeemed" rather than "saved". For some people that makes a major difference - all of humanity is redeemed by Christ but not all people are saved, or something like that. After all, for Catholics, you have your righteous unbelievers in Limbo and/or Purgatory.
I think the point he was trying to make is that it's more important to be a good and moral person than it is to be a Catholic without being good or moral. The weird thing is that for me, at this point you get a major disconnect. I honestly can't imagine Jesus sitting there with a bad Christian and a good atheist and saying "OK, bad Christian, you were a jerk all your life but felt bad about it later. You go to heaven. And you, good atheist, you were a wonderful loving person all your life but you don't believe in me. You go to hell." Whatever Jesus said, or whatever his followers said he said anyway, his actions in the bible make it seem like he would approve more of someone being a good person than of someone being a Christian. I mean.... it matters more to me that people like me than that they are good people, but I'm a flawed individual. I honestly can't imagine that for a figure like Christ, it would be more important that people liked him than that they were good people. That just seems weird to me, it seems like a massive disconnect from his general message and actions. It seems like something a self-centred human would prefer, not a man who was the son of god, not someone who sacrificed himself. You know?
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:59 am
Sanguina Cruenta I believe the Pope used the term "redeemed" rather than "saved". For some people that makes a major difference - all of humanity is redeemed by Christ but not all people are saved, or something like that. After all, for Catholics, you have your righteous unbelievers in Limbo and/or Purgatory. I think the point he was trying to make is that it's more important to be a good and moral person than it is to be a Catholic without being good or moral. The weird thing is that for me, at this point you get a major disconnect. I honestly can't imagine Jesus sitting there with a bad Christian and a good atheist and saying "OK, bad Christian, you were a jerk all your life but felt bad about it later. You go to heaven. And you, good atheist, you were a wonderful loving person all your life but you don't believe in me. You go to hell." Whatever Jesus said, or whatever his followers said he said anyway, his actions in the bible make it seem like he would approve more of someone being a good person than of someone being a Christian. I mean.... it matters more to me that people like me than that they are good people, but I'm a flawed individual. I honestly can't imagine that for a figure like Christ, it would be more important that people liked him than that they were good people. That just seems weird to me, it seems like a massive disconnect from his general message and actions. It seems like something a self-centred human would prefer, not a man who was the son of god, not someone who sacrificed himself. You know? Ignoring what Jesus said will naturally lead to this kind of rationalization. But the truth is that no human deserves to be saved according to his own words (Mark 10:18; and the entire bible implies this); only God is good and we all fall short of his definition time and time again (just read through the Book of Judges or look at the world lol). So, the "bad Christian" vs. "good Atheist" example doesn't hold up. No one deserves to be saved, even Christians; ergo, it's an act of mercy that he's saving any at all. He's only going to bother salvaging the kind of person that expresses belief in his son and that loves his righteous ways (including the bit about ridding the world of wickedness; if the individual won't repent of sin, then that person will get disposed of along with his love for sin). Like I already quoted, Jesus will be the one doing the punishing, coming with his angels in blazing fire. Jesus = YHWH. The Old Testament God punished people and so will he. We're his creations and he can do with us as he wants; if we're not functioning the way he designed, or at least expressing an interest in functioning correctly, then he'll throw us away, as much as it pains him. Humans aren't the only example of his creations that became corrupted, out of their own choice: the fallen angels are another, but they get shown no mercy at all. I think it's ungrateful and arrogant to demand God be more lenient, when he doesn't have to show any mercy at all. He could treat us like the rebellious angels if he wanted to. 2 Peter 2:4-11 (NIV)
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b ] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord.
Footnotes:
a. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
c. 2 Peter 2:10 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verse 18.
d. 2 Peter 2:11 Many manuscripts beings in the presence of
Jude 1:6 (NIV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:02 am
Just a quick note, even according to Catholic teaching, very few things popes have said over the centuries have been declared "infallible." That's a very specific word that has been reserved for very special, very specific teachings, and I think all the infallible Catholic teachings can be counted on one hand...if not, then definitely by two hands. I can't remember what any of them are off the top of my head, but I recall most of them being fairly basic...although I think one might be the perpetual and eternal virginity of Mary, which has been a topic of some debate by scholars and historians of all faiths (some people believe that Mary went on to have a relatively normal marriage, with sex, and likely with more children, to her husband Joseph; Catholics disagree, to put it lightly).
So, even as a practising Catholic, you actually can disagree with something a pope says and still be keeping with your faith.
/Catechism class
The very existence of hell, and the idea of all non-Christians going there forever after death, is probably the biggest theological issue I've struggled with, and at times has even been the deciding factor in whether or not I've identified as Christian at all over the years.
I like the idea of Purgatory. A place where souls not bad enough for hell but not pure enough for heaven (which in my mind is the vast majority of humanity, frankly) can go and can have the chance to repent, be cleansed, and ideally ultimately enter heaven.
But I have to remind myself that what I like or don't like doesn't really matter. And that's a hard thing for me to accept, but I can't pretend that I somehow know God's will better than anyone else, or that God will somehow bend reality to suit my whims.
To be honest, I'm not really sure what I think about hell and who goes there and why. I have a problem with the notion that faith alone offers salvation. I have a problem believing that, say, Jeffrey Dahmer went to heaven and Gandhi went to hell. That's an issue for me, it really is. I can't really accept that.
But ultimately it comes down to me having to accept my own fallibility. My opinion, my perspective, is always going to be coloured by my humanity, just like everyone else. I don't know who will ultimately end up in heaven and who will go to hell. Only God knows, and that, at least, I can accept.
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:30 pm
Ophelias Bathwater Pastor Rob Bell (of NOOMA video series fame) published a book a year or so ago titled "Everyone Wins", which is Pastor Bell's explanation of why everyone, regardless of our deeds or our relationship with Christ, is bound for heaven. I remember a few waves made then, mostly in my own church, but it wasn't anything quite like this. Edit: questionable grammar The book is actually called "Love Wins" and my church did a book study on this and also "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan, which is a response to Rob Bell's book with the opposite point of view. In my opinion these are both interesting reads but I'm definitely on the side of Rob Bell. Love wins!
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:57 pm
The fact of the matter is, this issue is't about whether or not gays go to hell. It's about whether or not they are welcome into the church. Jesus never said ANYTHING about homosexuality. He did, however, say to love our neighbors as ourselves. We are not to judge and discriminate, as the Word of God is for ALL. God will judge everyone in the end. The Pope's point was that "we are all brothers." This had nothing to do with sexual immorality or their worthiness to come to church because the fact is NONE of us are worthy because even if we repent we keep sinning and making mistakes just as much as a homosexual does. What makes straight sin is so much better than homosexual sin? Quote: Matthew 7:3-5 -- Luke 6:41,42 1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:11 pm
Alashuko The Fighter I believe God loves us and after what Christ did, he gave us a chance to be forgiven of our sin. All sins are forgivable except for the blaspheming of the Lord's name. Everybody can change no matter what. If people decide not to and stick to their evil ways, then the evil kingdom of Hell will await for them. Actually Jesus said this: Quote: Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Blaspheming the Lords name is not what is unforgivable-- it is rejecting and blaspheming the Holy Spirit-- the force of intuition that God gives us that tells us to do the right thing. It's being a good person that's what matters. If we go all our days proclaiming his name from the rooftops and our actions don't back it up, then it's all in vain, and it's this hypocrisy that Jesus spoke against to the Pharisees. Part of me has seen the exclusivity and propriety of the Catholic church as nothing more than modern-day Pharisees. I believe that Pope Francisco has taken a step in the right direction in changing this image of the Catholic church. Many people who have turned away from Jesus simply because of churches turning them away will see that the Word is for everyone and unity will become the way of the church-- the way it was meant to be in the beginning.
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:28 pm
Ophelias Bathwater So I know there aren't a lot of Catholic folks here (though I'm aware of a few fallen ones, myself included), but a speech made yesterday by Pope Francisco has got my Facebook all abuzz right now with family and friends weighing in on his statement that when Jesus came to Earth, he came to save absolutely everyone, not just believers. Pastor Rob Bell (of NOOMA video series fame) published a book a year or so ago titled "Everyone Wins", which is Pastor Bell's explanation of why everyone, regardless of our deeds or our relationship with Christ, is bound for heaven. I remember a few waves made then, mostly in my own church, but it wasn't anything quite like this. For Protestants, we can always go find another pastor, but Catholic and Orthodox folks can't go find another pope. He is meant to be the direct line to Heaven. Some Catholics believe his word is the infallible law of God. Pope Francisco has already made some pretty serious waves and it seems he's not intent on stopping. So what does that mean for Catholics? Was every Pope up to now so immersed in Catholic tradition that they failed to hear the messages God was telling them? Does Pope Francisco have something up his sleeve? What does this mean for the future of the Catholic church? Or all of us? I'm really kind of at a loss. I would like to believe that Hell is a place reserved only for demons, and that God wouldn't throw any of His precious creations away. I so badly want to believe that. I just don't know, but Pope Francisco gives me hope that it's true. So what do y'all think? Is this nothing to get excited over, or is it something worth debating? Is this going to be a turning point for the way people view Catholics? Or even Christians in general? Edit: questionable grammar I'm sure someone has already told you this, but in the Bible, it's very clear that God's wrath is poured out on unbelievers. Christ came into the world to free us from sin, because the Law that convicts of sin has sentenced us all to eternal torment. It is by God's love that we are saved, but we have to believe in that love. Jesus wouldn't have said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. None comes to the Father but through me." if he didn't mean it. Read Romans 1:18-2:16 (somewhere around there). Don't be deceived; God is love, but he's also righteous and holy. If all were saved, regardless of if they loved God, where would be the justice? 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 says "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Friend, don't be sucked into the deception of the enemy.
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Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:21 pm
A bit off-topic, but a Catholic friend linked me to this article on Pope Francis that I thought was rather beautiful: http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/06/this-extraordinary-pope-ctd-4/
I really think he could change the Catholic church for the better. At the very least he gives the entire church a better reputation.
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:52 am
I believe in obedience to the Catholic Church no matter what, yes the church has had some bad popes sure some have left the faith but that dosen't change a thing. The church still stands and has never fallen, every question everyone here and the world has already been said being repeated over and over again testing the Catholic Church yet still here we are, still we talk of peace, love and being living examples of christ to the world to the poor and to the whole nations, never to forget God's free Gift of love and being living witnesses to this testimony.
If anyone wishes to talk about faith Im willing to guide them best as I can or if you have more questions about the Catholic Church go to a priest but pray first before he talks to you, ask God if your serious about him and want to learn the truth pray to God and listen to what the priest has to say
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Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:37 pm
Universalism as in everyone gets to go to heaven? No, it would be criminal to false-ly tell people they get free salvation without excepting Christ and can rely on being a "good person." To say being a good person is good enough means we don't need Jesus and can achieve salvation on our own. Which we can't do. It doesn't matter if it's a relief to believe the opposite, it just means you're putting your trust in a lie. The "good" non-Christian to a "bad" Christian comparison doesn't actually matter. First of all, if you love God, you'll want to act better. Can't say you have faith in Jesus' healing and don't show it Also, just because someone is Christian doesn't mean they'll act perfect all the time.. But at the same time it's a cop out to say someone isn't a Christian but it's cool because they're nice sometimes. Christianity isn't Karma and God doesn't keep tallies like that. Not to mention people aren't as nice as we think we are, so all these "good people" would be very disappointed. They'll just get over whelmed, give up, and feel unworthy. Instead of arrogantly trusting in ourselves and beat put ourselves down when we inevitably fail, we need to be focusing on God and His power that enables us to be slightly less evil.
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