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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:34 am
That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam.
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:26 am
VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation?
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:26 pm
sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? I'm pretty sure he means that Muslims don't accept Jesus as the son of the Lord God, that he was a 'just another prophet'. Christians believe that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself in human form, sacrificing himself for the sins of others so they can go to heaven. According to them, if you don't believe Jesus is your saviour and the son of god, you will not receive salvation. Recap: Muslims don't think God/Allah made a human (Jesus) who was also himself (God) at the same time to be sacrificed to himself (god) so the sins of human beings can be forgiven because he (god) won't forgive them unless they do so. Therefore, he can't become a muslim because then Jesus would just be a prophet.
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 12:18 am
Kusugari sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? I'm pretty sure he means that Muslims don't accept Jesus as the son of the Lord God, that he was a 'just another prophet'. Christians believe that Jesus was both the son of God and God himself in human form, sacrificing himself for the sins of others so they can go to heaven. According to them, if you don't believe Jesus is your saviour and the son of god, you will not receive salvation. Recap: Muslims don't think God/Allah made a human (Jesus) who was also himself (God) at the same time to be sacrificed to himself (god) so the sins of human beings can be forgiven because he (god) won't forgive them unless they do so. Therefore, he can't become a muslim because then Jesus would just be a prophet. actually we dont believe tht jesus is god or the son of god he isnt "just another prophet" however he did play a big part in society and i c how you think he is the son of god/god himself.
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:28 pm
sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? Pretty much what Kusugari said. We can get down to how Peter's vision goes against Muslim dietary restrictions or whatever, but the key issue here is Jesus. He is Son of God, Son of Man, himself fully God as well. If that isn't something that you absolutely believe, and you have said that you don't, then you aren't Christian. You're Muslim. And, according to our beliefs, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have salvation. We believe this way because that is what is said in our scriptures. It's the same with why we believe that the Father has made his Son higher than all things (ruler of the Earth, if you will). Or why we can eat pork or meat sacrificed to idols without concern.
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Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:56 pm
VK Fox sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? Pretty much what Kusugari said. We can get down to how Peter's vision goes against Muslim dietary restrictions or whatever, but the key issue here is Jesus. He is Son of God, Son of Man, himself fully God as well. If that isn't something that you absolutely believe, and you have said that you don't, then you aren't Christian. You're Muslim. And, according to our beliefs, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have salvation. We believe this way because that is what is said in our scriptures. It's the same with why we believe that the Father has made his Son higher than all things (ruler of the Earth, if you will). Or why we can eat pork or meat sacrificed to idols without concern. that seems extremely blind. blind worship is not something I'd consider salvation... more like dependency. it makes me get the impression that your religion is an abusive relationship.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:09 am
VK Fox sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? Pretty much what Kusugari said. We can get down to how Peter's vision goes against Muslim dietary restrictions or whatever, but the key issue here is Jesus. He is Son of God, Son of Man, himself fully God as well. If that isn't something that you absolutely believe, and you have said that you don't, then you aren't Christian. You're Muslim. And, according to our beliefs, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have salvation. We believe this way because that is what is said in our scriptures. It's the same with why we believe that the Father has made his Son higher than all things (ruler of the Earth, if you will). Or why we can eat pork or meat sacrificed to idols without concern. We disagree with the the idea of Jesus being God/Son of God. We do believe in Jesus though and we do believe in salvation. If Jesus is the son of God/God himself then then that would be saying their is no God today and that is false since Jesus died. How can Jesus be God if Jesus died? since God is all-powerful then how can he die? Also you stating Jesus is God would go against your own words. You claim Jesus is son of God how can that be possible if Jesus IS God? And IF he is son of man how can he be God? And can you tell me the story of Jesus maybe that will help me understand better and see what leads you to believe that Jesus is God/Son of God. and if your interested i can tell you the story of Jesus i believe so that you can understand me better. biggrin Everything is forbidden for a reason, everything has a reason, everything happens for a reason, thats what muslims believe. In Islam eating pork is forbidden for the following reasons: 1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115. "Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3] The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden. 2. Pork prohibited in the Bible The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8] Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8] A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5. 3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova (eggs), enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body. Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature. 4. Pork has fat building material Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension. 5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs. Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta. 6. Pig is the most shameless animal The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:34 am
sheshe507 We disagree with the the idea of Jesus being God/Son of God. We do believe in Jesus though and we do believe in salvation. fair enough. Quote: If Jesus is the son of God/God himself then then that would be saying their is no God today and that is false since Jesus died. How can Jesus be God if Jesus died? since God is all-powerful then how can he die? Also you stating Jesus is God would go against your own words. You claim Jesus is son of God how can that be possible if Jesus IS God? And IF he is son of man how can he be God? And can you tell me the story of Jesus maybe that will help me understand better and see what leads you to believe that Jesus is God/Son of God. and if your interested i can tell you the story of Jesus i believe so that you can understand me better. biggrin Gnostic here so I might not represent all Christians in my take on this. "Son of" is an old term that means "perfect image of". When we say that Christ is the son of man and the son of God, it means that we are saying that he is the perfect image of what God would be like if he were human. Eventually this term became literalized into Christ being God's child, but everyone is God's child when you get right down to it. While there are many Christians who put an emphasis on his death, the important part is that he resurrected. By Jewish standards he should have died right for preaching against the Torah. Though he was killed, he was resurrected. If he was not from God, at least, then why would he resurrect, especially one who died so shamefully as he did? Why would God resurrect someone that seemed to go against what Judaism at the time stood for? Was not the Israelites God's chosen people? Even if this story isn't a literal account it teaches a lesson that if you keep with what is true, shame will not kill that truth. They may try to hide what is true but it will not remain dead, it will resurrect and ascend. Quote: Everything is forbidden for a reason, everything has a reason, everything happens for a reason, thats what muslims believe. In Islam eating pork is forbidden for the following reasons: 1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115. "Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3] The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden. 2. Pork prohibited in the Bible The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8] Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8] A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5. 3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova (eggs), enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body. Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature. 4. Pork has fat building material Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension. 5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs. Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta. 6. Pig is the most shameless animal The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay. If it helps you get closer with God more power to you. I'll enjoy my bacon. Matthew 15:11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:44 am
Chieftain Twilight VK Fox sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? Pretty much what Kusugari said. We can get down to how Peter's vision goes against Muslim dietary restrictions or whatever, but the key issue here is Jesus. He is Son of God, Son of Man, himself fully God as well. If that isn't something that you absolutely believe, and you have said that you don't, then you aren't Christian. You're Muslim. And, according to our beliefs, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have salvation. We believe this way because that is what is said in our scriptures. It's the same with why we believe that the Father has made his Son higher than all things (ruler of the Earth, if you will). Or why we can eat pork or meat sacrificed to idols without concern. that seems extremely blind. blind worship is not something I'd consider salvation... more like dependency. it makes me get the impression that your religion is an abusive relationship. it's dependency. Complete and total dependency on a God who saved me despite what I was and what I am. This God who grants me every breath I take despite the fact that he has every right to not let me breathe my next. I hated him, and yet he stuck by me and lifted me up when I begged him to do so. It's love. I love him, he loves me. If he desires worship, I'll give it to him. Worship is not something I do because I desire salvation. I do it because it has already been given to me. It isn't a plea for something I want, but a reaction to what I have. sheshe507 We disagree with the the idea of Jesus being God/Son of God. We do believe in Jesus though and we do believe in salvation. I understand that. The difference here is that the two aren't separate things in Christianity. No Jesus, no salvation. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do, what you have, or what you claim to be. Quote: If Jesus is the son of God/God himself then then that would be saying their is no God today and that is false since Jesus died. Oh sure, Jesus died, but he lives still. He died and was resurrected by the Father, just as he promised he would be. Matthew 28:1-7 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. "He is not here, for he has risen, just as he said. Come, see the place where he was lying. Go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead; and behold, he is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see him; behold I have told you. Quote: How can Jesus be God if Jesus died That is who Jesus himself claimed to be. I don't pretend to understand how God can be three entities with each one fully God in its own right. What I do understand is that Jesus makes the claim, and that I believe him. Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?John 14:9 John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (With and was). All things came into being through him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Quote: since God is all-powerful then how can he die? Because he choose to. There are many examples of Jesus limiting himself to serve the Father. The first one that comes to mind is in the garden where Jesus begs the Father to remove the cup (the coming crucifixion), but then states that if the Father wills it, he will do it. (See Luke 22:39-46 ) Quote: And IF he is son of man how can he be God? It's a title he gives himself (I've heard it said that he calls himself Son of Man more than anything else, but I don't have actual statistics to show you for that.) most likely referring to the fact that he had a physical, human birth. Quote: And can you tell me the story of Jesus maybe that will help me understand better and see what leads you to believe that Jesus is God/Son of God. He was born, lived, and died as was mapped out by the Old Testament prophecies. He preformed many signs and miracles as have been recorded in the New Testament. He was killed, he was raised up, and then he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I've seen men healed, I was there when a young person had a demon cast out. God has consistently shown himself to me to be exactly what he claimed he was in the Bible. I have no reason to doubt him. If you want a verse by verse examination between the OT and the NT, I'll do it for you. Or find you one. (probably find you one) Quote: Everything is forbidden for a reason, everything has a reason, everything happens for a reason, thats what muslims believe. In Islam eating pork is forbidden for the following reasons: I understand that it was forbidden under Jewish law. You're making the mistake of saying that because it is in the Bible, it is Christian law. It isn't necessarily, and this specific question was resolved early on. Quote: The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. (Acts 10:9-16 ESV) What God has called clean, do not call unclean. I recognize health problems and all that jazz. Personally, I find pork to taste pretty bad, though I've never met anyone ever who's had health problems because of it. I know you guys over there tend to see our country that way, but I wouldn't. Yeah, we got technology and we've got money, but it hasn't gone over very well for us. We're unhappy, miserable, lonely people and it shows.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:25 am
rmcdra sheshe507 We disagree with the the idea of Jesus being God/Son of God. We do believe in Jesus though and we do believe in salvation. fair enough. Quote: If Jesus is the son of God/God himself then then that would be saying their is no God today and that is false since Jesus died. How can Jesus be God if Jesus died? since God is all-powerful then how can he die? Also you stating Jesus is God would go against your own words. You claim Jesus is son of God how can that be possible if Jesus IS God? And IF he is son of man how can he be God? And can you tell me the story of Jesus maybe that will help me understand better and see what leads you to believe that Jesus is God/Son of God. and if your interested i can tell you the story of Jesus i believe so that you can understand me better. biggrin Gnostic here so I might not represent all Christians in my take on this. "Son of" is an old term that means "perfect image of". When we say that Christ is the son of man and the son of God, it means that we are saying that he is the perfect image of what God would be like if he were human. Eventually this term became literalized into Christ being God's child, but everyone is God's child when you get right down to it. While there are many Christians who put an emphasis on his death, the important part is that he resurrected. By Jewish standards he should have died right for preaching against the Torah. Though he was killed, he was resurrected. If he was not from God, at least, then why would he resurrect, especially one who died so shamefully as he did? Why would God resurrect someone that seemed to go against what Judaism at the time stood for? Was not the Israelites God's chosen people? Even if this story isn't a literal account it teaches a lesson that if you keep with what is true, shame will not kill that truth. They may try to hide what is true but it will not remain dead, it will resurrect and ascend. Quote: Everything is forbidden for a reason, everything has a reason, everything happens for a reason, thats what muslims believe. In Islam eating pork is forbidden for the following reasons: 1. Pork prohibited in Qur'ân The Qur'ân prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115. "Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur'ân 5:3] The above verses of the Holy Qur'ân are sufficient to satisfy a Muslim as to why pork is forbidden. 2. Pork prohibited in the Bible The Christian is likely to be convinced by his religious scriptures. The Bible prohibits the consumption of pork, in the book of Leviticus "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you". "Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you." [Leviticus 11:7-8] Pork is also prohibited in the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." [Deuteronomy 14:8] A similar prohibition is repeated in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 65 verse 2-5. 3. Consumption of pork causes several diseases The other non-Muslims and atheists will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbours in the intestine and is very long. Its ova (eggs), enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body. Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature. 4. Pork has fat building material Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension. 5. Pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta is cleared by pigs. Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta. 6. Pig is the most shameless animal The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay. If it helps you get closer with God more power to you. I'll enjoy my bacon. Matthew 15:11 What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" no we are not all children of God when it comes down to it we are his creation. but i see what you mean now by son of God. Quran ch 12 " he is the only god god is absolute he neither begets nor was begotten there is no one equal to him. Im not saying Jesus was not from God he was. He was a beloved prophet and he brought miracles to the people and he was generously gifted by God. in the Quran their is a reference to Jesus and his gifts chapter 2 verse 87 " We gave the Book to Moses and made the Messengers follow in his path. To Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave the miracles and supported him by the Holy Spirit. Why do you arrogantly belie some Messengers and murder others when they have brough you messages that you dislike?" if Jesus was the perfeect image of God wouldnt God himself say so straight up? also in chapter 2 verse 253 "We gave some of Our Messengers preference over others. To some of them God spoke and He raised the rank of some others. We gave proofs to Jesus, Son of Mary and supported him by the Holy Spirit." if Jesus was truly the perfect image of God would let us know and Jesus would still be omong us today. chapter 3 verse 39 " The angels called him (Zachariah) saying, 'God gives you the glad news of the birth of your son, John who will be the confirmation of (Jesus) the Word of God. He will become chaste, noble leader and one of the righteous prophets" btw Zachariah was not mary's husband as you may assume from this quote but her guardian. also ch 3 verse 45 " 'behold' the angels told mary, 'God has given you the glad news of coming birth a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, Son of mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God" also when Jesus died. When he was "crucified" ch4 verse 157-158 "and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of mary, the messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed ( the question of wether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus. God raised him up to Himself God is majestic and All-wise." so Jesus never did die shamefully. and to those who claimed Jesus was son of God directly "People of the book, do not exceed the limits of devotion in your religion or say anything about God which is not the truth. Jesus,son of mary, is only a messenger of God, His Word and a spirit from Him whom he conveyed to Mary. So have faith in God and His messengers. Do not say that there are three Gods . It is better for you to stop believing in the Trinity. There is only one God. He is too glorious to give birth to a son. To God belongs all that is in the heaveans and earth. God alone is a sufficient guardian for all." and for those who believe Jesus is God, "Those who say that Jesus, son of mary, is God, have, infact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, 'Worship my Lordand yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradice and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers.'" God showing us these miracles were fom God and Jesus could not have resseructed the dead or healed the deaf without God had God not given him the ability to do so. " When God said,'Jesus, son of mary, recall my favors to you and your mother, how i supported you by the holy spirit made you speak to people from your cradle and when you grew up taught you the book gave you wisdom teh Torah and the Gospel when, by my will, you made a sculpture of a bird out of clay blew into it and it turned into a real bird by my will how by my my will, you healed the deaf, lepers and raised the dead. when you came to the israelites in the house with clear miracles and i saved you from their mischief even though the disbelievers among them said 'this is obviously majic'" also to those who believed Jesus and mary were Gods, " When God asked Jesus, son of mary 'did you tell men to consider you and your mother as their Gods besides God?' he replied, 'glory be unto you! how could i say what i have no right to say? had i ever said it You would certainly know about it. You know what is in my soul, but i do not know what is in yours. it is you who has absolute knowledge of the unseen. ch9 verse 30 "Some of the jews have said ezra is the son of god and Christians have said the same about Jesus. this is only what they say and it is similar to what the unbelievers who lived before them have said. May God destroy them wherever they exist." i hope this helps you to see things my way....and help you have a better understanding biggrin and as for that last verse that doesnt make the first two meaningless. you are going against your own religion and you are going to be held responsible you are the one risking your own health do what pleases you
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:33 am
VK Fox Chieftain Twilight VK Fox sheshe507 VK Fox That's the largest part of the problem right there. I don't agree with Muhammad in the vast majority of what he says. We hold that Jesus is divine, and that without him, you don't have salvation. Period. Muslims do not. Even though I'll argue with other "Christians" (other debate, other day) we at least have that in common. Muslims do not, and thus I can't really advocate for Islam. wat exactly do u not agree with? wat do u mean muslims dont have salvation? Pretty much what Kusugari said. We can get down to how Peter's vision goes against Muslim dietary restrictions or whatever, but the key issue here is Jesus. He is Son of God, Son of Man, himself fully God as well. If that isn't something that you absolutely believe, and you have said that you don't, then you aren't Christian. You're Muslim. And, according to our beliefs, if you don't have Jesus, you don't have salvation. We believe this way because that is what is said in our scriptures. It's the same with why we believe that the Father has made his Son higher than all things (ruler of the Earth, if you will). Or why we can eat pork or meat sacrificed to idols without concern. that seems extremely blind. blind worship is not something I'd consider salvation... more like dependency. it makes me get the impression that your religion is an abusive relationship. it's dependency. Complete and total dependency on a God who saved me despite what I was and what I am. This God who grants me every breath I take despite the fact that he has every right to not let me breathe my next. I hated him, and yet he stuck by me and lifted me up when I begged him to do so. It's love. I love him, he loves me. If he desires worship, I'll give it to him. Worship is not something I do because I desire salvation. I do it because it has already been given to me. It isn't a plea for something I want, but a reaction to what I have. sheshe507 We disagree with the the idea of Jesus being God/Son of God. We do believe in Jesus though and we do believe in salvation. I understand that. The difference here is that the two aren't separate things in Christianity. No Jesus, no salvation. It doesn't matter who you are, what you do, what you have, or what you claim to be. Quote: If Jesus is the son of God/God himself then then that would be saying their is no God today and that is false since Jesus died. Oh sure, Jesus died, but he lives still. He died and was resurrected by the Father, just as he promised he would be. Matthew 28:1-7 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. "He is not here, for he has risen, just as he said. Come, see the place where he was lying. Go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead; and behold, he is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see him; behold I have told you. Quote: How can Jesus be God if Jesus died That is who Jesus himself claimed to be. I don't pretend to understand how God can be three entities with each one fully God in its own right. What I do understand is that Jesus makes the claim, and that I believe him. Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?John 14:9 John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (With and was). All things came into being through him, and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Quote: since God is all-powerful then how can he die? Because he choose to. There are many examples of Jesus limiting himself to serve the Father. The first one that comes to mind is in the garden where Jesus begs the Father to remove the cup (the coming crucifixion), but then states that if the Father wills it, he will do it. (See Luke 22:39-46 ) Quote: And IF he is son of man how can he be God? It's a title he gives himself (I've heard it said that he calls himself Son of Man more than anything else, but I don't have actual statistics to show you for that.) most likely referring to the fact that he had a physical, human birth. Quote: And can you tell me the story of Jesus maybe that will help me understand better and see what leads you to believe that Jesus is God/Son of God. He was born, lived, and died as was mapped out by the Old Testament prophecies. He preformed many signs and miracles as have been recorded in the New Testament. He was killed, he was raised up, and then he ascended to the right hand of the Father. I've seen men healed, I was there when a young person had a demon cast out. God has consistently shown himself to me to be exactly what he claimed he was in the Bible. I have no reason to doubt him. If you want a verse by verse examination between the OT and the NT, I'll do it for you. Or find you one. (probably find you one) Quote: Everything is forbidden for a reason, everything has a reason, everything happens for a reason, thats what muslims believe. In Islam eating pork is forbidden for the following reasons: I understand that it was forbidden under Jewish law. You're making the mistake of saying that because it is in the Bible, it is Christian law. It isn't necessarily, and this specific question was resolved early on. Quote: The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. (Acts 10:9-16 ESV) What God has called clean, do not call unclean. I recognize health problems and all that jazz. Personally, I find pork to taste pretty bad, though I've never met anyone ever who's had health problems because of it. I know you guys over there tend to see our country that way, but I wouldn't. Yeah, we got technology and we've got money, but it hasn't gone over very well for us. We're unhappy, miserable, lonely people and it shows. u should definitely see my quote to rmcdra... i talked alot about Jesus and as for the rest if their is anything i didnt cover that is in this post quote me again with what i havnt responded to. as for the you over there that doesnt apply to me as much as u migh think lol. i know the money and the misery i lived in chicago my whole life i moved to palestine (thts whre i am now) 8 months agi so i would know all about america and its imperfections haha biggrin
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:27 pm
sheshe507 no we are not all children of God when it comes down to it we are his creation. but i see what you mean now by son of God. Quran ch 12 " he is the only god god is absolute he neither begets nor was begotten there is no one equal to him. Christians hold that all humans are his children. We may have to agree to disagree on this point. Quote: Im not saying Jesus was not from God he was. He was a beloved prophet and he brought miracles to the people and he was generously gifted by God. in the Quran their is a reference to Jesus and his gifts chapter 2 verse 87 " We gave the Book to Moses and made the Messengers follow in his path. To Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave the miracles and supported him by the Holy Spirit. Why do you arrogantly belie some Messengers and murder others when they have brough you messages that you dislike?" Okay and? I haven't murdered any other prophets though I do hold that the Head of Prophecy was cut off with John the Baptist (Secret James) Quote: if Jesus was the perfeect image of God wouldnt God himself say so straight up? John 10 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Quote: also in chapter 2 verse 253 "We gave some of Our Messengers preference over others. To some of them God spoke and He raised the rank of some others. We gave proofs to Jesus, Son of Mary and supported him by the Holy Spirit." if Jesus was truly the perfect image of God would let us know and Jesus would still be omong us today. He is still alive and with us. The kingdom of heaven is within us: Luke 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. Thomas 3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. Quote: chapter 3 verse 39 " The angels called him (Zachariah) saying, 'God gives you the glad news of the birth of your son, John who will be the confirmation of (Jesus) the Word of God. He will become chaste, noble leader and one of the righteous prophets" btw Zachariah was not mary's husband as you may assume from this quote but her guardian. also ch 3 verse 45 " 'behold' the angels told mary, 'God has given you the glad news of coming birth a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, Son of mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God" also when Jesus died. When he was "crucified" ch4 verse 157-158 "and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of mary, the messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed ( the question of wether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus. God raised him up to Himself God is majestic and All-wise." so Jesus never did die shamefully. This is again where we'd have to agree to disagree since our text disagree with each other on this. Again the idea of Christianity is "God in the gutter". God dwells with those who are downtrodden and shamed by the world. The people who are honest and true with themselves. Not with those who will hide behind false authority such as wealth and prestige. In canonical texts, you have God in the form of a b*****d Jewish man who gets killed as a political traitor. In non-canonical texts you have God taking the form of a slave and even a rape victim. The idea is that you cannot shame God since God is above all things. When you try to shame God, you just shame yourself. Quote: and to those who claimed Jesus was son of God directly "People of the book, do not exceed the limits of devotion in your religion or say anything about God which is not the truth. Jesus,son of mary, is only a messenger of God, His Word and a spirit from Him whom he conveyed to Mary. So have faith in God and His messengers. Do not say that there are three Gods . It is better for you to stop believing in the Trinity. There is only one God. He is too glorious to give birth to a son. To God belongs all that is in the heaveans and earth. God alone is a sufficient guardian for all." and for those who believe Jesus is God, "Those who say that Jesus, son of mary, is God, have, infact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, 'Worship my Lordand yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradice and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers.'" God showing us these miracles were fom God and Jesus could not have resseructed the dead or healed the deaf without God had God not given him the ability to do so. " When God said,'Jesus, son of mary, recall my favors to you and your mother, how i supported you by the holy spirit made you speak to people from your cradle and when you grew up taught you the book gave you wisdom teh Torah and the Gospel when, by my will, you made a sculpture of a bird out of clay blew into it and it turned into a real bird by my will how by my my will, you healed the deaf, lepers and raised the dead. when you came to the israelites in the house with clear miracles and i saved you from their mischief even though the disbelievers among them said 'this is obviously majic'" also to those who believed Jesus and mary were Gods, " When God asked Jesus, son of mary 'did you tell men to consider you and your mother as their Gods besides God?' he replied, 'glory be unto you! how could i say what i have no right to say? had i ever said it You would certainly know about it. You know what is in my soul, but i do not know what is in yours. it is you who has absolute knowledge of the unseen. ch9 verse 30 "Some of the jews have said ezra is the son of god and Christians have said the same about Jesus. this is only what they say and it is similar to what the unbelievers who lived before them have said. May God destroy them wherever they exist." i hope this helps you to see things my way....and help you have a better understanding biggrin Well good thing I hold to emanation cosmology. I get where you are coming from but I don't see it like that. I see God in like layers. Only so much of God is revealed at one time or to those with a particular understanding. All new understanding builds on top of old understanding and cutting off the branches that are dead and withered and keeping that which bears good fruit. Oh well. Again we are going to have to agree to disagree concerning this. I hold that Christ is what God would be like if he did take the form of a man. I hold that God dwells in each of us and it was through Christ who made that known to us through the stories associated with him. Salvation is not obtained through obedience to the Law but through the spirit which comes from God and the Law is imperfectly based on. Galatians 2 19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Quote: and as for that last verse that doesnt make the first two meaningless. you are going against your own religion and you are going to be held responsible you are the one risking your own health do what pleases you The passage I quoted basically means I'm not going to hell for eating some pork. 2 Corinthians 3 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Edit: I'm not arguing against your culture, I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from. Edit: Clarification
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:56 pm
rmcdra sheshe507 no we are not all children of God when it comes down to it we are his creation. but i see what you mean now by son of God. Quran ch 12 " he is the only god god is absolute he neither begets nor was begotten there is no one equal to him. Christians hold that all humans are his children. We may have to agree to disagree on this point. Quote: Im not saying Jesus was not from God he was. He was a beloved prophet and he brought miracles to the people and he was generously gifted by God. in the Quran their is a reference to Jesus and his gifts chapter 2 verse 87 " We gave the Book to Moses and made the Messengers follow in his path. To Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave the miracles and supported him by the Holy Spirit. Why do you arrogantly belie some Messengers and murder others when they have brough you messages that you dislike?" Okay and? I haven't murdered any other prophets though I do hold that the Head of Prophecy was cut off with John the Baptist (Secret James) Quote: if Jesus was the perfeect image of God wouldnt God himself say so straight up? John 10 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Quote: also in chapter 2 verse 253 "We gave some of Our Messengers preference over others. To some of them God spoke and He raised the rank of some others. We gave proofs to Jesus, Son of Mary and supported him by the Holy Spirit." if Jesus was truly the perfect image of God would let us know and Jesus would still be omong us today. He is still alive and with us. The kingdom of heaven is within us: Luke 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. Thomas 3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. Quote: chapter 3 verse 39 " The angels called him (Zachariah) saying, 'God gives you the glad news of the birth of your son, John who will be the confirmation of (Jesus) the Word of God. He will become chaste, noble leader and one of the righteous prophets" btw Zachariah was not mary's husband as you may assume from this quote but her guardian. also ch 3 verse 45 " 'behold' the angels told mary, 'God has given you the glad news of coming birth a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, Son of mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God" also when Jesus died. When he was "crucified" ch4 verse 157-158 "and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of mary, the messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed ( the question of wether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus. God raised him up to Himself God is majestic and All-wise." so Jesus never did die shamefully. This is again where we'd have to agree to disagree since our text disagree with each other on this. Again the idea of Christianity is "God in the gutter". God dwells with those who are downtrodden and shamed by the world. The people who are honest and true with themselves. Not with those who will hide behind false authority such as wealth and prestige. In canonical texts, you have God in the form of a b*****d Jewish man who gets killed as a political traitor. In non-canonical texts you have God taking the form of a slave and even a rape victim. The idea is that you cannot shame God since God is above all things. When you try to shame God, you just shame yourself. Quote: and to those who claimed Jesus was son of God directly "People of the book, do not exceed the limits of devotion in your religion or say anything about God which is not the truth. Jesus,son of mary, is only a messenger of God, His Word and a spirit from Him whom he conveyed to Mary. So have faith in God and His messengers. Do not say that there are three Gods . It is better for you to stop believing in the Trinity. There is only one God. He is too glorious to give birth to a son. To God belongs all that is in the heaveans and earth. God alone is a sufficient guardian for all." and for those who believe Jesus is God, "Those who say that Jesus, son of mary, is God, have, infact, turned to disbelief. Jesus said to the Israelites, 'Worship my Lordand yours. God will deprive anyone who considers anything equal to God of Paradice and his dwelling will be fire. The unjust people have no helpers.'" God showing us these miracles were fom God and Jesus could not have resseructed the dead or healed the deaf without God had God not given him the ability to do so. " When God said,'Jesus, son of mary, recall my favors to you and your mother, how i supported you by the holy spirit made you speak to people from your cradle and when you grew up taught you the book gave you wisdom teh Torah and the Gospel when, by my will, you made a sculpture of a bird out of clay blew into it and it turned into a real bird by my will how by my my will, you healed the deaf, lepers and raised the dead. when you came to the israelites in the house with clear miracles and i saved you from their mischief even though the disbelievers among them said 'this is obviously majic'" also to those who believed Jesus and mary were Gods, " When God asked Jesus, son of mary 'did you tell men to consider you and your mother as their Gods besides God?' he replied, 'glory be unto you! how could i say what i have no right to say? had i ever said it You would certainly know about it. You know what is in my soul, but i do not know what is in yours. it is you who has absolute knowledge of the unseen. ch9 verse 30 "Some of the jews have said ezra is the son of god and Christians have said the same about Jesus. this is only what they say and it is similar to what the unbelievers who lived before them have said. May God destroy them wherever they exist." i hope this helps you to see things my way....and help you have a better understanding biggrin Well good thing I hold to emanation cosmology. I get where you are coming from but I don't see it like that. I see God in like layers. Only so much of God is revealed at one time or to those with a particular understanding. All new understanding builds on top of old understanding and cutting off the branches that are dead and withered and keeping that which bears good fruit. Oh well. Again we are going to have to agree to disagree concerning this. I hold that Christ is what God would be like if he did take the form of a man. I hold that God dwells in each of us and it was through Christ who made that known to us through the stories associated with him. Salvation is not obtained through obedience to the Law but through the spirit which comes from God and the Law is imperfectly based on. Galatians 2 19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Quote: and as for that last verse that doesnt make the first two meaningless. you are going against your own religion and you are going to be held responsible you are the one risking your own health do what pleases you The passage I quoted basically means I'm not going to hell for eating some pork. 2 Corinthians 3 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Edit: I'm not arguing against your culture, I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from. Edit: Clarification if you said we are all children of Adam i would say ok yes i agree. but we are not children of God but are all the descendants of Adam. heres another disagreement between us. we believe that the kingdom of heaven is above us not within us. i also am not arguing against your culture but trying to help you understand mine biggrin
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