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Respect: Inside the Community and Out

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Ren LehCrow

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:26 pm





What is your view of "respect" both within the witch/pagan community and outside of it?

In many online communities and message boards devoted to witchcraft and paganism there is always someone who posts that they want to practice witchcraft or follow a pagan religion (or both) but their parents disapprove. My response to these threads is always the same: that is they are living in their parents' home and their parents are supporting them, it would be very ungrateful and disrespectful to them to follow that path and that it would be better for them to wait until they are at a point in their lives where they can move out and become independent. Sometimes I will also go so far as to say that following their chosen path behind their parents' back would bring shame on them and their practice (but I usually only say that it I decide I don't like the OP for whatever reason).

Today, someone (not the thread's OP) replied to one of those posts of mine saying that I was the one who should be ashamed for taking the side of the "haters" who would "persecute their own child" for being pagan and practicing witchcraft. She (I assume she was a woman/girl) then proceeded to lay out a plan for the OP to begin practicing an eclectic tradition behind her parents' back and ended her post with the phrase "Blessed Be".

I, being the head-strong and argumentative b***h that I am, of course replied back to her countering her unkind words about me and my character and then proceeded to rip apart her plan for the OP to deceive their parents. And I, of course, ended my post by explaining that "Blessed Be" was a very specific phrased used in Wicca and that it was rude and (sometimes) offensive to just casually throw around as a salutation.

Her response was to rather eloquently call me a b***h say that she didn't care how other people used the phrase or what they thought of her using it. She was going to keep doing it because that was what she wanted to do.

So, now that story time is over, lets swing back to the main topic: Respect.


* Do you think it is disrespectful for a person to practice witchcraft or follow a pagan religion if they are under the age of 18 and still dependent on their parents when those parents don't want them to?

* Is it disrespectful to another witch/pagan to advice them not to practice their chosen path if they are still dependent on their parent and those parents do not want them to practice?

* Is it disrespectful to another witch/pagan to condemn them for giving advice that you disagree with?

* Is it disrespectful for a member of the witch/pagan community to use a ritual phrase from another tradition casually in every-day conversation? Doubly so if they are aware of the offense it may cause?

* Should members of the witch/pagan community respect each other at all?

* Do you think people who do not practice witchcraft or are not pagan are entitled to respect from the witch/pagan community at all?

--

What is your view of "respect" both within the witch/pagan community and outside of it?

(I think I'll post this in a few other places. Sorry if you've already read it and responded.)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:03 pm



From what I have observed, most problems of respect come from entitlement issues. And this observation is not limited to the witch/pagan community. Nine out of ten times, if someone doesn't see anything wrong with disrespecting another person or group of people and their beliefs/culture/politics/property/rights/etc. it is because they feel they are entitled to by the Right of Free Speech or Freedom of Religion, etc.

Of course, with younger people there's always the rebelliousness of youth mixed in there too. Why are rebellious teenagers such little snots?

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ncsweet

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:35 am


Ren LehCrow
* Do you think it is disrespectful for a person to practice witchcraft or follow a pagan religion if they are under the age of 18 and still dependent on their parents when those parents don't want them to?


The short and simple answer is yes, I think it's disrespectful. Having said that, I think a lot will depend on if the parents have actually expressly forbid the minor from practicing, or if it's more of a matter of the minor knowing that their parents wouldn't approve, but they haven't said anything to them, so they don't really know for sure.

I'm a big fan of just not saying anything, if the topic hasn't been brought up, keep it that way. Do your own thing discretely, and don't go out of your way to rock the boat. On the other hand, if you have already been expressly forbidden to practice, then (as you mentioned) while they are still under their parents roof, they need to respect their parents wishes and not practice. Does this mean that they can't practice and study in other places - no, so really other than location, it's not impeding their religious freedoms - only restricting where they can openly practice.

Personally I feel that trying to practice witchcraft (particularly spellwork), or
trying to hold other religious rituals (and calling on Gods/esses) in a place where they are not welcome will diminish whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. In spell work, there will be counter-energy from the parent (even if it's passive energy - simply saying "I don't want that here" puts that energy out there), which will make that spell/charm, etc... less effective. If you are calling a God/ess into the house, they will know that they are not welcome, they will feel that negativity, and I think would be less likely to respond, or might even feel disrespected that they are being asked into such a space that is not truly accepting of their presence. So that is a consideration as well.

Quote:
* Is it disrespectful to another witch/pagan to advice them not to practice their chosen path if they are still dependent on their parent and those parents do not want them to practice?


Not at all. Part of what I've learned as a seeker, is that patience really is a virtue, and if they can't wait the 2 or 3 years it takes to get out from under their parents roof, then odds are they don't have the patience to properly learn/practice anyways. No practicing at home, doesn't mean they still can't be using that time to study, and research - or that they can't do things outside the house. There are many ways of holding a ritual - even the act of simply walking down the street can be made sacred. It's all about looking for creative ways to do your own thing, while still respecting your parents wishes.

Quote:
* Is it disrespectful to another witch/pagan to condemn them for giving advice that you disagree with?


It's one thing to disagree with someone, after all we are all entitled to our own opinions (even if our opinions are wrong - it's our choice to continue to hold on to them, or let them go), it's another to openly berate someone for having a different opinion - especially in situations where there really isn't an actual "right" or "wrong" answer.

To encourage someone to lie, or be deceitful (especially a minor), or to be openly disrespectful to one's parents is unethical and shows poor moral judgement. Should we all be able to openly practice whatever we want, whenever we want to, of course, but it's also a lot easier to go with the flow, than go against it. A child's parents have the ability to make life fairly miserable for them, if they so choose, so there is no reason to openly advocate defiance, especially on something like one's religious/spiritual choices. No one is saying you can't be what you are - just that there is an appropriate time and place to express it - and while you are still living under your parent's roof, isn't that time and place. I'm a big fan of the "Witch's Pyramid" and it's the "be silent" part that always seems to trip people up - they don't seem to realize that it's never been about shouting it out to the world (nor should it be).

Quote:
* Is it disrespectful for a member of the witch/pagan community to use a ritual phrase from another tradition casually in every-day conversation? Doubly so if they are aware of the offense it may cause?


In regards to the specific phrase that was used - as a casual phrase, no I don't think it should be used. However I know initiates who take both sides of the debate, so I really think it could be argued either way. I know other religions who use similar phrasing on a regular basis, and it was not taken from BTW, so I think there could be an argument made that it is a rather common phrase, even though it has sacred significance to BTW. I no longer use the phrase, though I did at one point. It wasn't something that I used as a common every-day thing, but something that when I said it - I sincerely meant that I wanted the person/people I was speaking to be blessed. Not in the... I'm going to sanctify you in blood sort of way, but in the I hope your life is full of joy, love, good luck, etc... It was hard for me to give that up, but I did so out of respect for a friend.

Quote:
* Should members of the witch/pagan community respect each other at all?


I think true respect has to be earned, but in most cases (at least for me) there is a sort of neutral level of respect that I give to almost everyone, and it either raises or lowers, depending on their actions. I dothink that we should be more tolerant (not sure if that's the right word) of what other people have to say. Those who have been lucky enough to find better sources of information, should not be so quick to talk down to those who haven't been so lucky. Clearly there will always be those who are going to stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen, but it's easy enough to expose them for the idiots they are (without resorting to flame wars).

Quote:
* Do you think people who do not practice witchcraft or are not pagan are entitled to respect from the witch/pagan community at all?

Again there is the feeling that respect has to be earned, and most of what I said above still applies. On this particular point, just because someone has a different religion or path, is not any reason why I should show them any less respect than any one else. If we want them to respect us, then we need to have respect for them as well... it's a two-way street.

Quote:
What is your view of "respect" both within the witch/pagan community and outside of it?


I think people are too quick to judge each other based on their own "narrow" views, rather than looking at things with a wider angle lens. The big picture is that there is a ton of misinformation floating around - not only within the pagan community, but in general... the media, tv, movies, books, other religions, etc... it's hard to find respect (for each other, and within other paths) when we are constantly fighting all of that.
____________________

(if you haven't - and truthfully I can't remember if you are a member or not sweatdrop - would it be ok if I reposted these questions in Midnight Moon?)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:32 am


ncsweet
(if you haven't - and truthfully I can't remember if you are a member or not sweatdrop - would it be ok if I reposted these questions in Midnight Moon?)



I'm not a member of Midnight Moon, but I have seen banners for it floating around the forums. I'd love an invitation if you are offering one.

And, please feel free to post this wherever you feel it's appropriate. I thik these are things that people (not just witches and pagans, but people in general) don't realize and should be made to think about.

Ren LehCrow

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:47 pm


I found this to be very helpful, and interesting, as I've already been doing as it suggests in my situation. I know for a fact my parent would not approve of my practicing the Craft, and so I keep it hidden. However, I do not practice in the home, for multiple reasons. Primarily, because I know my mother would not approve of it. Doesn't mean I'm not trying to learn from outside sources, and do what I can.

Now, for the blessed be thing. I have no intel on where it came from, but when I say it I am, as ncsweet said, honestly wishing the person I speak to good will. If this has some significance I don't know about, I'd like to hear it, so I won't misuse it any longer.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:54 pm


Dr. H. Lecter
Now, for the blessed be thing. I have no intel on where it came from, but when I say it I am, as ncsweet said, honestly wishing the person I speak to good will. If this has some significance I don't know about, I'd like to hear it, so I won't misuse it any longer.

"Blessed Be" is a specific term used in a specific way within the Wiccan faith. It should not be used as a greeting or a way to end a sentence/post. It's part of the rite of Wine which in more than just a superficial way is very similar in lore at least to that of transubstantiation of wine into the blood of Christ in a Catholic mass. It is basically like going around and saying to people "The Blood and Body of Christ to you" when using it as a greeting.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:57 pm


Okay, now I get it.
Thanks for clarifying that for me, Renkon.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:54 pm


Dr. H. Lecter
Okay, now I get it.
Thanks for clarifying that for me, Renkon.

Anytime. That's what this guild is here for.

Renkon Root
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:08 pm



I'm thinking of making this topic a Sticky. I like how its getting people to think about how they act towards certain types of people both inside paganism and outside of it.

I would like this guild to be one that both is respectful to others and promotes respect within the community.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:17 pm


Thats a good idea.

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