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 Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:27 pm
Luke 17 20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” One may ask where is God or where is Christ? The obvious answer given is Heaven, but just where is Heaven? Is it on the highest mountain or up in the sky? Many ancient people believed this and there are those who believe that today. With the sky and outer space commonly referred to as the heavens it's no wonder people would believe that's where God is and non-believers would scoff at those who believe in a god. This particular passage illustrates that Heaven isn't quite what we may believe it to be. The Kingdom of God is not a place but a state of being. It it isn't "here" or "there" but when the Kingdom is reached it within our midst. Other versions of this passage declare that it "is within you" and rightly so. If it is not "here" nor "there" then, other than the view of declaring that it doesn't exist, is to acknowledge that it is an internal state of being. Luke 17 22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. If we accept that the Kingdom of God is a state of being then this passage begins to make sense. There are those back then, and even today who have seen the Son of Man, that perfect image of mankind. As days pass on from that first glimpse one begins to waver and will try desperately to see it again. Like the person in Philip K. d**k's A Scanner Darkly who claimed to be in Heaven once. He desperately wanted to see it again so he mixed up various drug mixes to try to recreate his experience but perpetually failed. Seeing as each person is unique there is no magic formula to see God. Those who have should count themselves blessed since the experience did not come of their own work but in that they trusted that it was there and they looked for it. We cannot trust those who say "Just say this phrase and you will be saved" nor can we trust those who say "Perform this ritual and you will be saved" because the Kingdom of God is not "here" nor "there". It will come in it's own time and it will be like lightning when it does come. The suffering comes from the waiting and expectation of it arrival and the preparation one must make to see it when it comes. It is like lightning, if you blink you will miss it. And you will be rejected by this generation, by those who believe it will be found in a magic phrase, a magic ritual, and those who deny it is even there at all. All these various pressures will cause great suffering for those seeking the Kingdom of God but keep strong, the Kingdom is in our midst and it is within you.
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:55 pm
I think it's on a different plane of existence.
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:09 pm
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:58 am
This post makes me think of all those people who purport having NDE''s, and they vary so much in specifics I wonder whether if it's not a bit of both--a state of being and a "place".
Of course I also wonder about the idea of a personal God in an impersonal space (i.e. a heaven where everyone goes that is perceived the same by all, like life now), and then why every NDEr has a differing revelation.
gonk It boggles my mind, and i think of how people all have different revelations since we're unique in our methods of understanding.
But whatever heaven is--a state of spirit, another plane of existence--I hope everyone I know (and a good many that I don't) are there.
Blessings into the New Year wink
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Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:16 pm
Happy New Years to you too biggrin
I trust that it's there too. I have good reason to believe it exist but of course but I'm ignorant of what it is exactly, just that it's not going to be what we are expecting.
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:27 am
It hasn't been made yet. the end-of-times stories say that when He returns, New Jerusalem/Heaven will come with him. So...pretty sure he's still making it in preparation for the end.
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:27 pm
`Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,' I said, `art sure no craven.
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the nightly shore - A Hypistarian minister once told that the original verses of the verses concerning the Kingdom wasn't saying that it was at hand, but in our hands in a way.
Also the Gospel of Thomas that I posted said that the Kingdom is not in the skies or in the sea, but within us and around us. Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:01 pm
It's funny how often I dream as a result of questioning something.
Once I thought really hard about this. And I had a dream.
Actually, I think I mentioned this recently somewhere else, but it wasn't here.
Anyway, I dreamt of a time when Earth and Heaven were sort of one and the same. I mean, there was distinction between them, as when God and the angels came to Earth, they were always descending to Earth. And the sky was a bright and beutiful place.
Well, short of actually going on like forever describing the dream, which is not the point I guess...
My dream got to the point where Adam and Eve at the fruit of knowledge, and along with what transpired biblically, the sky began to turn all kinds of ways and the light that was once present in the clouds was no more. It was like Heaven was still there, but it wasn't.
In the same dream, when God cast lucifer into hell. It looked like hell was a dark, empty place. There was nothing there, because God wasn't there. he'd made a place for where he was not, since that what lucifer wanted. There was no fire or anything. There was nothing at all. In my dream, the wounded lucifer was crying hatefully to God. God said, "for all you've fought for it so hard; a kingdom for where I am not, so have I given it to you." Lucifer was so jacked up though, he couldn't fly out of the darkness where God had cast him. He just continued to curse him until the darkness closed over. The last part I saw the that darkness from above the earth. It closed just the same way that heaven had gone away. It just did. Like it sealed up. Then Heaven was heaven, seperate from the earth, and Earth was earth, seperate from hell.
Yes, this was just a dream I had, nothing more. I try to take it as food for thought. But that's also what drives me crazy. I'm an atheist that can't find any little bit of God's existence, but when I ask questions, I dream about the answers. I've gone to some churches to ask them about it, but all they ever tell me, is if anything isn't completely scriptual then it's just influence from the devil, and that it's wrong. So I ended up concluding that they are either such, or they are just dreams after all.
I've pretty much decided they're just dreams.
Quite fascinating to have though.
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:08 am
Splendid Sailor Venus It's funny how often I dream as a result of questioning something. Once I thought really hard about this. And I had a dream. Actually, I think I mentioned this recently somewhere else, but it wasn't here. Anyway, I dreamt of a time when Earth and Heaven were sort of one and the same. I mean, there was distinction between them, as when God and the angels came to Earth, they were always descending to Earth. And the sky was a bright and beutiful place. Well, short of actually going on like forever describing the dream, which is not the point I guess... My dream got to the point where Adam and Eve at the fruit of knowledge, and along with what transpired biblically, the sky began to turn all kinds of ways and the light that was once present in the clouds was no more. It was like Heaven was still there, but it wasn't. In the same dream, when God cast lucifer into hell. It looked like hell was a dark, empty place. There was nothing there, because God wasn't there. he'd made a place for where he was not, since that what lucifer wanted. There was no fire or anything. There was nothing at all. In my dream, the wounded lucifer was crying hatefully to God. God said, "for all you've fought for it so hard; a kingdom for where I am not, so have I given it to you." Lucifer was so jacked up though, he couldn't fly out of the darkness where God had cast him. He just continued to curse him until the darkness closed over. The last part I saw the that darkness from above the earth. It closed just the same way that heaven had gone away. It just did. Like it sealed up. Then Heaven was heaven, seperate from the earth, and Earth was earth, seperate from hell. Yes, this was just a dream I had, nothing more. I try to take it as food for thought. But that's also what drives me crazy. I'm an atheist that can't find any little bit of God's existence, but when I ask questions, I dream about the answers. I've gone to some churches to ask them about it, but all they ever tell me, is if anything isn't completely scriptual then it's just influence from the devil, and that it's wrong. So I ended up concluding that they are either such, or they are just dreams after all. I've pretty much decided they're just dreams. Quite fascinating to have though. That does sound like an epic dream. It's believed that hell is the ultimate seperation from God based on one's wishes. I don't like the "if it's not scriptural then it's from the devil either". That's legalism as it's finest. I mean what about personal revelations? Doesn't God still talk to people? I think he does. I mean if you examine the Joseph mythos, he was a soothsayer reading messages from God. My take on the creation account personally is heretical by most churches (Sethian Creation story) so I'm probably not the best to comment here XD. Edit: I'd take such comments about "not scriptural" with a grain of salt. From my studies and imho, your dream is consistant with scripture and lore that the Fall Mythos is based upon. Most believers and even pastors only study what they need to study about the theology of the church that they are serving in.
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:36 am
At the chance of sounding very un-Christian-like... I call 'BULLSHIT" on the whole, "if anything isn't completely scriptual then it's just influence from the devil, and that it's wrong.".... I can't take the Bible as complete or completely literal. So many Christians want to use it as a history book, but the fact is, it's not. It's a religious text. It doesn't even explain most of the things I have questions about. So much that was important to pre-messianic Jews and early Christians was left out of the finished canon simply because men could not comprehend, or explain, or believe what was in those excluded texts. I guess what I am trying to say is that, there are some things that don't seem to matter what is believed, because the religion today leaves it out. I honestly believe that there is a purpose to the vagueness. Why would we know so little about something so central to our ('our' being humanity as a whole) spirituality? I think it is one of those calling cards to get us to look for God. I think it is a way for us to seek a real relationship with Him/Her. I think the Kingdom is so much more complex than what pastors preach, or even what can be revealed to us: and I think that it is a mystery that will remain no matter how hard we try to understand it (at least 'til death).
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On a more personal belief level... I think it is a combination of separate plane of existence/ and within us... I also think the afterlife is a personal existence that we take what we have done, and who we have met, with us to. I seriously believe the last and final moment of our life could possibly determine what heaven (or hell) is to us. The final second must be like an eternity. What if it is? And if we are focusing on all that is, and was good in life, then that final second must be bliss. The opposite applies if we are focusing on fear, or what we left undone... ... but that doesn't mean that there isn't God, or a place of torment, or a place of peace while we are alive either. I believe another facet of heaven and hell exists within our state of mind. Some people live in heaven or hell while they are alive by the state of mind they reside in. I honestly believe that there are 3 different planes that have been separated for specific purposes as well. Very, VERY much like Venus wrote of her dream... and I don't know why that would be so far fetched to any Christian, as it is the general consensus that the "Lake of Fire" description of Hell is a metaphor used to describe what hell is "Like unto" in regards to torment level.
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:11 am
Eltanin Sadachbia At the chance of sounding very un-Christian-like... I call 'BULLSHIT" on the whole, "if anything isn't completely scriptual then it's just influence from the devil, and that it's wrong.".... I can't take the Bible as complete or completely literal. So many Christians want to use it as a history book, but the fact is, it's not. It's a religious text. It doesn't even explain most of the things I have questions about. So much that was important to pre-messianic Jews and early Christians was left out of the finished canon simply because men could not comprehend, or explain, or believe what was in those excluded texts. I guess what I am trying to say is that, there are some things that don't seem to matter what is believed, because the religion today leaves it out. I honestly believe that there is a purpose to the vagueness. Why would we know so little about something so central to our ('our' being humanity as a whole) spirituality? I think it is one of those calling cards to get us to look for God. I think it is a way for us to seek a real relationship with Him/Her. I think the Kingdom is so much more complex than what pastors preach, or even what can be revealed to us: and I think that it is a mystery that will remain no matter how hard we try to understand it (at least 'til death).
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Agreed. Especially the bolded. Quote: On a more personal belief level... I think it is a combination of separate plane of existence/ and within us... I also think the afterlife is a personal existence that we take what we have done, and who we have met, with us to. I seriously believe the last and final moment of our life could possibly determine what heaven (or hell) is to us. The final second must be like an eternity. What if it is? And if we are focusing on all that is, and was good in life, then that final second must be bliss. The opposite applies if we are focusing on fear, or what we left undone... ... but that doesn't mean that there isn't God, or a place of torment, or a place of peace while we are alive either. I believe another facet of heaven and hell exists within our state of mind. Some people live in heaven or hell while they are alive by the state of mind they reside in. I honestly believe that there are 3 different planes that have been separated for specific purposes as well. Very, VERY much like Venus wrote of her dream... and I don't know why that would be so far fetched to any Christian, as it is the general consensus that the "Lake of Fire" description of Hell is a metaphor used to describe what hell is "Like unto" in regards to torment level. Sounds good.
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