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Joji-tan

Questionable Regular

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:19 pm


【PunkSlippers 】
パンク スリッパ
says:

@Princess: Well, my two favourite authors are Sarah Dessen and Jodi Picoult. Their novels are hardly involve love triangles. For Jodi, she is busy writing about controversial topics and such tales so there is not enough time to put in a love triangle or any semblance of one. As for Dessen, she writes in the Young Adult genre and there is always a main couple but it usually made clear from the beginning who is ending up with whom. No love triangles. Nothing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:38 pm


Nice, I'll have to look those two up.
Another thing I actually don't like about romance is how the couples are so predictable. Though I suppose if the couple is already together to begin with, that would be okay. I read a book that started out like that. I was really actually liking it... and then the girl had to go and cheat, and mess up the entire relationship.
But I liked the first half of the book. XD

Arlingtonn


Joji-tan

Questionable Regular

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:55 pm


【PunkSlippers 】
パンク スリッパ
says:

Well, in Dessen's novels, you know that there is going to be a couple at the end but they are not at the beginning. Usually, the two characters become friends; there is little liking going on but bet your bottom dollar the girl is going to hit her 'Self-Destruct' button in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...BOOM! It always happens. There is always something the messes up the relationship and usually it is the girl pulling away in some manner. I have read most of her books and even that is the case, I still love her writing. It's the journey that counts with her as well as Picoult. Ooh, ooh, do you want some recommendations? I can PM them for you~

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:56 pm


Neuschwanstein Princess
Nightmare- I've just recently watched a little more on Batman, and I have to say I love your example of love triangle between the three villians.

And, I just finished watching Phantom of the Opera and that is a love triangle that works- for once. I still cried when Erik was left by Christine though. From now on, I'm only watching the first half of that show.


The comics play more on it than the show does since they are more geared toward adults (and really, the "Harley and Ivy" episode is the most explicit hint to their relationship, though it is still kept in the background/only hinted to), but I love the dynamic between the three of them, and it is honestly one of the more interesting love triangles to me because it is more hinted to, and never becomes a main plot. That, and I like how they treat the domestic abuse angle realistically (and to be fair, when Harley gets mad enough, the tables can turn. "Joker's Millions." Enough said).

I also just thought of another love triangle (well, love square is probably more accurate...) that I liked.

The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Disney version. The major players: Quasimodo, Esmeralda, Phoebus, and Frollo. Esmeralda is clearly the target of the latter three's affections (and I like her much better in the movie than in the book), but she has a distinct personality: she is strong-willed, kind, and willing to stand up for justice. Quasi just wants to be free from the bell tower, and befriending Esmeralda gives him the will to break free from his prison. Frollo is a lustful maniac, but he feels he is justified, and genuinely believes the Gypsies are a threat. Phoebus is your generic white knight, but he sticks by his code of honor.

Frollo's lust is a big part of what drives the plot, and while "the villain cannot get the girl" gets in the way, you can clearly see it is his actions that disgust Esmeralda, and she was willing to die rather than marry him/become his mistress. It is not because he is the villain, it is because he tried to kill her people and was basically threatening to let him rape her in exchange for her life. This is actually not far off from the original book (which I will get into in a moment, because the dynamics are different, but just as interesting even if Esmeralda is a naive idiot).

Then it comes down to Quasimodo and Phoebus. Esmeralda chose Phoebus in the end. Some people rage that he is the "pretty" one, and thus breaks the movie's "don't judge a book by its cover" message. Actually, it fits nicely with the theme. Esmeralda hated him at first. She thought he was just another soldier. He saved her life by telling Frollo she claimed sanctuary. And she was still suspicious of his intentions after. What won her over was when he saved the miller's family, meaning Esmeralda was not a one-time instance: Phoebus genuinely wanted to follow the code he was taught by, even when Frollo threatened he could be punished for not following orders. And while she did not see it (she was gone by then), Phoebus made the effort to come and apologize, so to the audience, his character is consistent. It was Phoebus's character that attracted her to him. And no one ever said that "don't judge a book by its cover" only applies to ugliness.

And what of Quasimodo? He loved Esmeralda too. He was also born ugly, and Esmeralda gets to know him and gives him the only real affection he has ever known. Which makes it that much more heartbreaking when it becomes clear who Esmeralda loves. But remember: she has seen the hearts of both men, and knows their true characters. She likes Quasi, but he does not have the strong will that Phoebus has. But one more thing to keep in mind: Quasi backed down in the end, even put their hands together. The reason? Esmeralda was never what he truly wanted: she was a means to the end of his real goal, which was to leave the bell tower. And he got that and more: he now has two very good friends and a city that is willing to look beyond his looks and accept him as their hero.

And what of the book version? Not the best example, as only three of the characters are really developed (Esmeralda is kind of like Bella in that she only ever seems to think of/talk about Phoebus), but it is still better than others I have read about/watched.

Frollo's arc is actually pretty consistent with the book (though, he was actually a lot better in the book. Take the Archdeacon from the movie, and mix it with movie!Frollo, and you have book!Frollo), so I will not touch on that.

The characters are a lot different in the book. Phoebus is a jerk who is engaged, and wants Esmeralda out of lust. It is only when Frollo (in disguise) tries to kill him when they are about to make love---and then pins the attempt on Esmeralda---is when he ditches her and stays loyal to his fiance, taking the attempt as a sign to be loyal. He completely ignores her for the rest of the book.

Quasi himself is also a lot darker. He is a deaf recluse, and the only people he loves are Frollo and Esmeralda. And he risks everything he can---even killing Frollo when he learns of his involvement---to try to save Esmeralda...who is grateful for his help, but only thinks of Phoebus. The only reason he "wins" is because Esmeralda dies, and he takes her body from the gallows and dies in a private place of heartbreak. In a creepily cute epilogue, their skeletons are fond intertwined years later, and crumble to dust when an attempt is made to separate them.

The book is a lot more tragic, but the character dynamics (minus Esmeralda) are still intriguing, and why I do not mind picking it up again.

And now that I think of it, I guess this could more or less be considered a romance novel, and one of the few I have actually enjoyed. XP

It probably helps that no one really gets the girl in the end, which is a nice change of pace from how romance novels usually end.

Nightmare1

Hallowed Phantom


Arlingtonn

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:25 pm


Jane- I don't think I'm interest in Dessen anymore... everything you just said are reasons I don't like romance. XD
I know you're supposed to enjoy a book for its characters, but I'm sick and tired of already knowing the plot. In fact, one of my main drives for writing (besides that I love it) is so I can write something new for myself.

Nightmare, you and your books...

I'm never reading The Huncback of Notre Dame for as long as I live.
The movie, however, is tons of fun. I have that first song (that tells Quasimodo's beginning) on my ipod. I don't think I realized Frollo had a thing for Esmerelda til I watched it again about five months ago...
I love Phoebus- he's handsome, he has a sense of humor, and yes, he has a wonderful code of honor. That you pointed out he stays true to his character just makes him even better.
I know this is a short and hasty response compared to what you wrote, but you honestly said everything worth saying about those characters, and I can't be more indepth than that.
I'm just going to wait here, for you to post another fantastic documentary on another set of love-triange characters, and then cheer you on. XD
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:39 pm


【PunkSlippers 】
パンク スリッパ
says:

Well, at least, there is Picoult. Like I said, she is too busy scripting controversies to bother with matters of the heart but does not mean that there will some...somewhere...if you can find it. Anyway, here is a list:

1. House Rules
2. Change of Heart
3. Salem Falls
4. My Sister's Keeper
5. The Tenth Circle
6. Mercy
7. Nineteen Minutes

There are more but those are all that I can give you an opinion. I had started reading her novels with My Sister's Keeper so maybe that would be a good place to start. I hated Mercy but that was because of my own personal beliefs conflicting with what was presented in the book. I did not even finish but it was a good story. Salem Falls is a bit witchy/Wiccan in subject matter so look out for that. I am in love with the rest though. Currently, I am reading House Rules and if you love a good laugh while reading a book, Jacob is going to have you rolling. His humor is universal, I think. Anwyay, that's my two cents. I hope that I did not scare you away from Picoult as well.


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Joji-tan

Questionable Regular


Arlingtonn

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:04 pm


Jane- I think I will check out House Rules. I am always in the mood for good comedy. I've tried to practice comedy in my own writing, because even though my main piece is about war, I want to capture the enjoyment of everyday life, and I believe in exessive comic relief.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:38 pm


Neuschwanstein Princess
Nightmare, you and your books...

I'm never reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame for as long as I live.
The movie, however, is tons of fun. I have that first song (that tells Quasimodo's beginning) on my ipod. I don't think I realized Frollo had a thing for Esmerelda til I watched it again about five months ago...
I love Phoebus- he's handsome, he has a sense of humor, and yes, he has a wonderful code of honor. That you pointed out he stays true to his character just makes him even better.
I know this is a short and hasty response compared to what you wrote, but you honestly said everything worth saying about those characters, and I can't be more indepth than that.
I'm just going to wait here, for you to post another fantastic documentary on another set of love-triangle characters, and then cheer you on. XD


I like the book. XP But it is very tragic and with no true happy ending, and considering the things I gave you a sadness warning on were relatively tame compared to it...yes, it may be a good option to not read it. I love the movie, though. Very different from the book, but it holds up in its own right, and one of the few, "OMG it is not like the booooooook!" movies I have come to enjoy.

On Frollo's lust for Esmeralda...really pay attention to the lyrics to Hellfire. The Latin background is more or less a confession.

No love triangles for now, but with my luck, I will probably stumble upon another one by next week. XD

Nightmare1

Hallowed Phantom

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