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 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:51 pm
I'm having an interesting conversation on MSN with two other Christians. The new Christian is asking why we pray at all. Me and this other guy are trying to explain it to her, but I'm getting a bit confused as well. She's mainly asking:
Why do we pray if God has a plan anyway?
If God's not going to change His plan for us, why pray for people to be saved?
Can we pray for God to save someone? Would He answer that prayer if He's already predestined who He's going to save?
Can we pray "help me understand ________"? Would He answer that?
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:51 pm
Quote: Why do we pray if God has a plan anyway? Because God tells us to, and it shows our obedience to His Word. Quote: If God's not going to change His plan for us, why pray for people to be saved? Same as above. Quote: Can we pray for God to save someone? Would He answer that prayer if He's already predestined who He's going to save? Yes. We don't know the mind of God so we don't know what he has predestined, so we pray in ignorance of God's will in terms of individuals, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for them. Quote: Can we pray "help me understand ________"? Would He answer that? We're told to pray for wisdom and understanding, so yes, so long as it's God-glorifying and not against His Prescriptive Will.
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:25 am
Prayer is also a means of building a relationship with God. He wants you to talk to Him, to get to know Him.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:32 am
Like Rin said, prayer is mostly for us. God doesn't need us to pray to Him, He wants us to! And since everything is already predestined, wouldn't it be predestined that you pray for that person? Everything you do is already known, so what you choose to do or not to do already has a role in His plan.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:21 am
I don't believe in that predestined stuff.
Life is what you make it due to God giving you free will.
You make your own choices, God doesn't make them for you.
If he knew that a lot of people weren't going to get saved then why did he send his son to die for everyone's sins?
God would never prevent his people from getting saved.
Sounds to me like he only wanted a hand full of people to be saved. Which doesn't sound right to me. If someone really wants is they can get saved.
Is why we are suppose to spread the word. Spreading the word wouldn't do a bit of good if there were some people that were not going to change because God wouldn't allow it.
Again.
If it was like that then why did he send his son to die for EVERYONE'S SINS if it didn't apply to EVERYONE
Moving on.
He wants us to pray so that we can get closer to him, Plus the Bible tells us too. It shows that we are obedient.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:10 am
Jesus did die so everyone could be saved, however that does not stop people from choosing to not be saved. Them choosing to not be saved does not make God any less all-knowing that he has been, is, and will be.
Simply because he knows people won't be saved doesn't mean he didn't try to save them. He gave the chance, it's out choice to take it.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:15 am
Doesn't mean that it is already set in stone.
So that whole predestined thing is well for lack of a better word... Bull.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:36 am
I'm just saying that God knows all, even the future. He knows there are people who will not follow him, and despite knowing this the offer to be saved is still up for grabs.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:35 pm
Testicular Diabetes Doesn't mean that it is already set in stone. So that whole predestined thing is well for lack of a better word... Bull. Romans 8:28-30: "28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
Really?
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:41 pm
Testicular Diabetes I don't believe in that predestined stuff. Life is what you make it due to God giving you free will. You make your own choices, God doesn't make them for you. Where in the Bible does it ever state that man was given all-encompassing autonomous free will? Testicular Diabetes If he knew that a lot of people weren't going to get saved then why did he send his son to die for everyone's sins? God would never prevent his people from getting saved. Though Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all, He did not intend to save everybody on Earth; the Bible does not say this. It states that everybody who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. If Christ died for everybody's sins, then the heathen is as secure in going to heaven as the Christian. If this is the case, why would Christianity need to exist? It wouldn't. Testicular Diabetes Sounds to me like he only wanted a hand full of people to be saved. Which doesn't sound right to me. If someone really wants is they can get saved. God is sovereign in His Will and can do what he wants, regardless of whether you or anyone else feels okay with that. No man wants to be saved; in fact the natural man detests God and is dead in sin. A man who is dead in sin cannot come to life on his own; God needs to raise that dead man to life. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. Testicular Diabetes Is why we are suppose to spread the word. Spreading the word wouldn't do a bit of good if there were some people that were not going to change because God wouldn't allow it. That's not how it works; the unregenerated man will not accept the truth of God. Nobody wants to come to God unless He works His Holy Spirit through them so that they can see the Truth; otherwise nobody would ever want to serve God, they would serve themselves and their earthly desires alone. Testicular Diabetes Again. If it was like that then why did he send his son to die for EVERYONE'S SINS if it didn't apply to EVERYONEBecause He didn't and it doesn't: John 10:11,15
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.Matthew 25:32-33 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Testicular Diabetes Moving on.He wants us to pray so that we can get closer to him, Plus the Bible tells us too. It shows that we are obedient. I can at least agree with you on this. I think your understanding of predestination is skewed and that you might want to try to understand what the Reformed/Calvinist/Predestination viewpoint really is before misrepresenting it. I used to feel the same way as you before I understood what I was trying to argue against until I actually learned how the other side thought and ended up agreeing with them. If you disagree or think I'm wrong anywhere, feel free to respond if you want; I'll gladly have a dialogue to clear anything up. We also have a thread on Calvinism that has a much more concise and detailed conversation on the predestination topic that I suggest you and anyone else read. It's a more appropriate thread than this one for this sort of theological debate.
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:49 am
I'm sorry if this is already covered by the calvenism thread, i don't think it is but i don't have time to read it because I've really gotta get back to my maths revision.
I struggle with how prayer actually does anything in terms of other people too, because surely if God has good plans for each of his children then prayer can't make his plans any better. Like if God wanted to cure someone of cancer then do fifty people need to pray for them or just the person themself?
It doesn't really matter to me though. The way I see it, I know enough Truth about God's character to not need to know all the Godly-physics of it all. I know:
1) God is Good
2) God loves EVERYONE even those who do not believe in him
If God loves everyone regardless and he is good then he is doing everything he can to reach those who don't know him. If I in all my imperfections love my family, how much more does God love them? I don't pray that God will save them, because God is working full out to reach them already. I pray that I will get to be a part of it, that i will know they have found Him.
I think prayer is about the position of your heart and you relationship with God. I pray and tell God about my day; what made me laugh, what upset me, who i miss. I talk to him like he's my best friend on the other end of the phone, it doesn't matter that he was watching it the first time. Telling God what actually happened and confiding in him what he already knows builds a relationship. But then i also have times when i come home from youth group and pray for a girl because she's having a really tough time at home, and i pray asking God to give me an opportunity to help her or to create an opportunity for us to talk about Him togther.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the greatest at the listening half but I'm a work in progress smile
But i do wonder about the verse that says "when 2 or more people gather in my name I am there." Surely he's there all the time anyway?
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