|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:46 pm
Hey all it's been a while since I've logged on--busy with life *sigh*. Recently, I went to an InterFellowship Event on apologetics at my university hosted by several Christian groups including my own little Bible study (we're only 2 years old 4laugh ). It seems like since going there, I've noticed more Christian-bashing crazies and found some courage and ambition for myself to confront them and to propagate and encourage apologetics among other learned Christians who like me were timid and folded like lawn chairs not wanting to offend or be hated (I'm hoping most of you are better than I was eek ). This person was pretty easy to deflect since his claims were purely emotional (but luckily, most Christianity-bashing people's arguments are based solely on feeling or a negative experience with someone of the faith (which on a side note, one misguided soul disproves a religion not)). This was a Yahoo! post: Quote: Jaime 2 hours ago Report Abuse I love how ignorant religious people are (lol) God created us? ok where is ur proof if u have no proof u got nothing. Wait wait i know what u got, (faith right LoL. Faith is not real people it cant be proven. Religion is a myth invented so people dont feel all alone in this huge universe. People are so afraid to learn that this is it, that when we die thats it, lights out, u dont dont go some where with golds gates and get to hang out with ur relatives LOL. Yes we are alone.If a huge earth quake could happen tomorrow I guarantee that this Huge all might God will not come down from heavens and save humanity (idiots) In Fact christian people are allways the ones that claim god and piece, are they are the most hypocritical people of all (except it cause u are) Replies (17) 0Thumbs UpThumbs Down0 Gjornia X 18 minutes ago "I love how ignorant religious people are (lol) God created us? ok where is ur proof if u have no proof u got nothing. Wait wait i know what u got, (faith right LoL. Faith is not real people it cant be proven." Clarifying the "Faith" that Christians have: It's the same type of faith that a parent has in their honor-student child that he or she will be successful. No child can "prove" that he or she will meet a certain income, have a certain career, or even fulfill the ideal of "success" that their parent has. Point being, faith is an extended belief in what can't be proven based off of things already seen and is used by people in everyday situations such as the aforementioned. In relation to Christianity, we believe everything came from something/someone and everything has a purpose because we as humans make things and the things we make have a purpose. The extension is then that someone/something (God) created us for a purpose. " Religion is a myth invented so people dont feel all alone in this huge universe. People are so afraid to learn that this is it, that when we die thats it, lights out, u dont dont go some where with golds gates and get to hang out with ur relatives LOL. Yes we are alone." Religion as a myth: If religion is "a myth invented so people dont feel all alone", I don't get exactly why this is bad, or how this negatively affects you personally. Furthermore the statement "u dont dont go some where with gold gates and get to hang out with ur relatives" requires a huge amount of (faith) in itself, unless you have personally died see what lies hereafter, or the lack thereof, and have returned to let us all know. "If a huge earth quake could happen tomorrow I guarantee that this Huge all might God will not come down from heavens and save humanity (idiots) " God's response to natural disasters: If we're still talking about Christian dogma, God is more concerned about the eternal souls of humanity than our temporal bodies. "In Fact christian people are allways the ones that claim god and piece, are they are the most hypocritical people of all (except it cause u are)" In FACT: We claim to be sinners, that salvation is found only through following the Word (both Jesus and the Gospels of the Bible), and that God loves and forgives all. Since we are in a constant state of sin (giving in to temptations of the world) we are in constant need of absolution, and the Good News is that it exists for everyone. If you want to criticize Christians, fine, but before criticizing Christianity you should read the Bible to make better substantiated claims against the doctrine. My whole point is to find out how does everyone here feel about apologetics, pry the wiser minds of the guild who might enlighten me on its prevalence in Scripture, and just shamelessly breathe life in the the topics here blaugh DISCUSS!!!
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:16 am
Apologetics is generally good I feel because it helps those outside and inside the faith better understand why things are taught the way they are. It is especially helpful to the apologeticist in particular because it encourages the person defending a belief or practice to understand why the belief or practice is held in the first place.
Some comments on the OP's apologist writings. Faith in the Christian context has to do with trust. It's trust that the teachings and evidence presented are true and that one will come to know why the teaching of Christianity are true and how this evidence supports it, if not in this life time, when one is with God. The evidence that Christianity has is experiential, consisting of Church teachings, the testimonies of early Christians contained in scripture, the personal testimonies of living saints, and our own experiences with God. Being experiential means that is not going to be concrete like empirical evidence but given how "spiritual" things are defined how does one objectively test for such things and not fall prey to confirmation bias for either side?
Religion is a set of practices and beliefs that promote a particular ontology. For Christians we recognize that we are not alone. No one ever is, because we don't live in a vacuum. We were made in the image of God and thus are like him in that we create the world we want. Christianity helps one realize that our actions do impact others whether we are aware of it or not.
This assumes that God doesn't choose to act through people. The fact that we can set down our own wants to help out a stranger who is not related to us other than being another person is testament to God being in someone regardless if they are aware of it or not. Given the fact we have free will, most choose not to listen to call to love. Beside this world is very temporal in nature, Christianity teaches that clinging to things that will pass away is pointless. Doesn't mean that you can't appreciate or enjoy it by any means but expecting such things to not pass away and to use such things as one's foundation to life and happiness is not helpful.
People in general are hypocritical. Your point?
Generally I pick and choose my battles. If it seems there is going to be open dialog and discussion, I'll jump in. If it's just a pissing contest, I try to stay out of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:24 pm
Galileo ~ "I do not believe the same God who endowed us with Reason intended us to forgo their use".
There are many people will reject Scripture. Some will simply plug their ears, stamp their feet and shout "No" and have a tantrum. Some will be more calm, intellectual, and academic about the whole thing and actually have a good question or reason for resisting it. We equally can respond in two ways. We can try to help either by throwing a louder tantrum, or by lovingly discussing the issues with them and giving the best reasonable answers to their doubts or questions.
With any idea you need to have a reason for believing in it. Reason and Logic are tools which, when polished reflect God's light right into the darkness, and God's light and glory far outshines dogmatic fire.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:48 pm
1upMushroomCloud Galileo ~ "I do not believe the same God who endowed us with Reason intended us to forgo their use". There are many people will reject Scripture. Some will simply plug their ears, stamp their feet and shout "No" and have a tantrum. Some will be more calm, intellectual, and academic about the whole thing and actually have a good question or reason for resisting it. We equally can respond in three ways. We can try to help either by throwing a louder tantrum, or by lovingly discussing the issues with them and giving the best reasonable answers to their doubts or questions. With any idea you need to have a reason for believing in it. Reason and Logic are tools which, when polished reflect God's light right into the darkness, and God's light and glory far outshines dogmatic fire. Beautifully put my good sir. I do think that there is some value in dogma as a frame of reference and starting point but to view dogma as the end all is self defeating.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:20 am
rmcdra 1upMushroomCloud Galileo ~ "I do not believe the same God who endowed us with Reason intended us to forgo their use". There are many people will reject Scripture. Some will simply plug their ears, stamp their feet and shout "No" and have a tantrum. Some will be more calm, intellectual, and academic about the whole thing and actually have a good question or reason for resisting it. We equally can respond in two. We can try to help either by throwing a louder tantrum, or by lovingly discussing the issues with them and giving the best reasonable answers to their doubts or questions. With any idea you need to have a reason for believing in it. Reason and Logic are tools which, when polished reflect God's light right into the darkness, and God's light and glory far outshines dogmatic fire. Beautifully put my good sir. I do think that there is some value in dogma as a frame of reference and starting point but to view dogma as the end all is self defeating. Thank you. There is always value in theology and doctrine; Most of the New Testament is just doctrine. The point is that we need to remember the purpose of being a Christian is not practicing doctrine, but practicing love.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:25 am
RMCDRA, you are enlightening as always. yeah, faith has a LOT to do with trust, trusting one another and God. And I'm slowly starting to see how to pick my arguments, because some opposers are just so obstinate they will reject and hate whatever I say simply to stay in disagreement.
On a side note, I always wanted to ask critics of Christianity, what part of the religion it is that the disagree with--the doctrine, the idea of a God, or the people who practice it. I even wonder what the foundation of their moral value system is and where it comes from. Personally, I think one can only believe in a God or be nihilist. Anything else just has more holes and gaps than any religion or mythology I can think of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:04 am
Gjornia X RMCDRA, you are enlightening as always. yeah, faith has a LOT to do with trust, trusting one another and God. And I'm slowly starting to see how to pick my arguments, because some opposers are just so obstinate they will reject and hate whatever I say simply to stay in disagreement. Not enlightened, just done a lot of questioning to make sense of my call back to Christianity, albeit I'm a heretic but none the less, devout to Christ. There's still much about Christianity I know very very little about. Yeah religion, specifically Christianity doesn't make sense to a lot of people and there are so very few people that will examine Christianity critically even within the faith. We are prone to reject what we don't understand and even more so when we are told we can't understand it and we have to accept it. With debates I try to take the stance I have nothing to loose. I'm not trying to convert anyone or "prove Christianity" but gain new insights about my religion though eyes of those on the outside. Truth doesn't require testing, it demands it. Quote: On a side note, I always wanted to ask critics of Christianity, what part of the religion it is that the disagree with--the doctrine, the idea of a God, or the people who practice it. I even wonder what the foundation of their moral value system is and where it comes from. Personally, I think one can only believe in a God or be nihilist. Anything else just has more holes and gaps than any religion or mythology I can think of. It's quite hard to promote social change from a moral relativist view point. If all morals are assumed to be relative or man made, then how can someone say that someone else is wrong on anything?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:54 pm
rmcdra It's quite hard to promote social change from a moral relativist view point. If all morals are assumed to be relative or man made, then how can someone say that someone else is wrong on anything? Precisely, and for that reason, it's quite hard to promote any kind of civility or human decency from a morally relative standpoint.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:03 pm
1upMushroomCloud rmcdra It's quite hard to promote social change from a moral relativist view point. If all morals are assumed to be relative or man made, then how can someone say that someone else is wrong on anything? Precisely, and for that reason, it's quite hard to promote any kind of civility or human decency from a morally relative standpoint. Also, there's no one outside of the individual to hold him accountable should he go against his moral belief system, which is subject to change anyway. But these are the gaps atheists and agnostics must reckon within themselves. @rmcdra, I found your statement enlightening because it was better worded than my response, but to the same end. We use what we know to be true from our pasts to shape our view of an unforeseeable future (or afterlife or deity) In most discussions that I have with non-Christians, I mostly defend my personal choice to follow it (I seem to come across people who find religions and their followers to be not all there, or the "all religions are the same" people). However, an equally troubling matter (and the reason why this guild was founded) are misguided Christians preaching and practicing hate (to different degrees) rather than love towards non-Christians. But then, I don't know how many Christians actually read their Bible regularly. Most I know back home just haphazardly go to Church if that, and seldom follow up the message with individual study, so there should almost be an apologetics for them too. Some things some churches do, I feel like they preach their own truth rather than the Truth. I'll do a bit of reading on apologetics in the Bible. I think Paul was a top apologist there. I also have an interest in learning about the Disciples on a biographical level (their history and such). Ah, I don't even know where I find the time to do all this between two jobs and school. =P
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:25 pm
Gjornia X 1upMushroomCloud rmcdra It's quite hard to promote social change from a moral relativist view point. If all morals are assumed to be relative or man made, then how can someone say that someone else is wrong on anything? Precisely, and for that reason, it's quite hard to promote any kind of civility or human decency from a morally relative standpoint. Also, there's no one outside of the individual to hold him accountable should he go against his moral belief system, which is subject to change anyway. But these are the gaps atheists and agnostics must reckon within themselves. @rmcdra, I found your statement enlightening because it was better worded than my response, but to the same end. We use what we know to be true from our pasts to shape our view of an unforeseeable future (or afterlife or deity) In most discussions that I have with non-Christians, I mostly defend my personal choice to follow it (I seem to come across people who find religions and their followers to be not all there, or the "all religions are the same" people). However, an equally troubling matter (and the reason why this guild was founded) are misguided Christians preaching and practicing hate (to different degrees) rather than love towards non-Christians. But then, I don't know how many Christians actually read their Bible regularly. Most I know back home just haphazardly go to Church if that, and seldom follow up the message with individual study, so there should almost be an apologetics for them too. Some things some churches do, I feel like they preach their own truth rather than the Truth. I'll do a bit of reading on apologetics in the Bible. I think Paul was a top apologist there. I also have an interest in learning about the Disciples on a biographical level (their history and such). Ah, I don't even know where I find the time to do all this between two jobs and school. =P I'm sorry a misunderstanding on my part on how I read your statement. Confirmation classes are supposed to catch that but if you get a teacher that doesn't know their stuff then... I'm quite fond of Paul myself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:35 pm
rmcdra Gjornia X 1upMushroomCloud rmcdra It's quite hard to promote social change from a moral relativist view point. If all morals are assumed to be relative or man made, then how can someone say that someone else is wrong on anything? Precisely, and for that reason, it's quite hard to promote any kind of civility or human decency from a morally relative standpoint. Also, there's no one outside of the individual to hold him accountable should he go against his moral belief system, which is subject to change anyway. But these are the gaps atheists and agnostics must reckon within themselves. @rmcdra, I found your statement enlightening because it was better worded than my response, but to the same end. We use what we know to be true from our pasts to shape our view of an unforeseeable future (or afterlife or deity) In most discussions that I have with non-Christians, I mostly defend my personal choice to follow it (I seem to come across people who find religions and their followers to be not all there, or the "all religions are the same" people). However, an equally troubling matter (and the reason why this guild was founded) are misguided Christians preaching and practicing hate (to different degrees) rather than love towards non-Christians. But then, I don't know how many Christians actually read their Bible regularly. Most I know back home just haphazardly go to Church if that, and seldom follow up the message with individual study, so there should almost be an apologetics for them too. Some things some churches do, I feel like they preach their own truth rather than the Truth. I'll do a bit of reading on apologetics in the Bible. I think Paul was a top apologist there. I also have an interest in learning about the Disciples on a biographical level (their history and such). Ah, I don't even know where I find the time to do all this between two jobs and school. =P I'm sorry a misunderstanding on my part on how I read your statement. Confirmation classes are supposed to catch that but if you get a teacher that doesn't know their stuff then... I'm quite fond of Paul myself. I could say alot about Paul, but I'd be getting off subject again. I think there is alot of scripture which could be seen as Apologetic. Paul was found to be writing specifically to defend certain theological beliefs in early Christianity (namely salvation by grace, not by obedience), and also to dismiss other ideas that were developing in the early church. Paul really did a lot to establish precedents within the church. He provides early, canonized examples of Doctrine, Apologetics, Theology, and guidelines on church conduct.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
