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 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:36 pm
Then your memory is failing you, unless it's simply a matter of defining "turn based". Plenty of Final Fantasy games aren’t turn based strategy. Well, I suppose that’s debatable on what you define as turn based, but Active Time Battling is certainly not the same as Turn Based in the sense where you have all the time in the world to decide what to do without worrying about the opponents attacking you. FFX and FFI are turn based in a way that any game with an ATB gauge is not, is what I mean, and it yields a world of difference. But yeah… this isn’t relevant.
I agree they had to modernize it. Here’s the thing, though: if they bothered to modernize it, why didn’t they modernize further and to the point of it being contemporary for 2009 FE gameplay (they did in very few ways, but it wasn’t enough: the way they changed the experience you receive from staves was an excellent improvement, I thought)? I’m not going to address every possible feature again because it would go nowhere, so I’ll address the idea of them as a whole (and mention a few by name). If you want to talk about precautions to prevent the game from being broken, putting in the formula that limits how far you can go with a Warp staff based on the user’s magic stat would have been MUCH more balancing. Adding in the rescue feature wouldn’t have been nearly as broken as warp staves are. IIRC, you get three. And the Hammerne staff has a ******** of uses. But let’s talk about “needed.” What’s needed for a remake to be a remake? The plot. And at least inclusion of the same characters. That’s basically the bare bones of it. Everything beyond that is unneeded. But what gets incorporated after that ought largely be determined by what is most appropriate to include. I strongly suggest adding some of the features mentioned earlier would be more appropriate than their exclusion.
As you’re looking for a counterargument to the inclusion of personality: things obviously change in remakes. Things changed in this remake. I can just as easily say, they weren’t supposed to be able to change classes are you can say they aren’t supposed to have personalities. Would giving the numerous characters actual personalities have changed the actual plot of the game? No. It wouldn’t have. Marth’s country would still have been invaded, and he’d still go to the places he went to in the order he went to them and would still get Sheeda in the end. But people would probably care for a lot of the characters a lot more.
I hold FE4 and FE7 in equal esteem. I put down FE7 for Best because it’s more balanced, and I couldn’t exactly put down both. But it was a very difficult decision (it was also a tie-breaking vote, which suggests things aren’t as GBA-centric as you’d like to think).
-I haven’t heard anyone say the game was too old for a remake. Just that it isn’t as fun… because of the gameplay, mostly. Gameplay, that, for the most part, they damn well could have incorporated without changing the game’s nature as a remake. And you’re being a total d**k to the “NA fanbase”, whoever that’s supposed to consist of. They didn’t like FE11. That isn’t to say they wouldn’t like a game with the same plot if other things were changed or that they wouldn’t like other entries in the series.
I completely agree about FE2. I don’t even want to touch that because it looks so unappealing. FE8… it’s definitely a weaker entry in the series, yes. And FE11 is definitely more challenging, which I DO appreciate. There’s also more to a game than how difficult it is. By the way, you’re comparing the games, yourself. So if I’m an idiot for doing it…
Every game is “its own game in its own right.” It’s the case for FE11 just as it is for every other entry in the series, so that seems like a pointless thing to say. It doesn’t prevent you from comparing them. Comparing them is inevitable, as far as I’m concerned. Both things compared are games, and in the same series at that. It’s not stupid to compare them, and further, it seems rather ignorant to argue against any comparison whatsoever, if not outright absurd. People realize it’s a remake of an old game.
I’m an English Major, so this is an easy example for me to produce, but I thinks it’s appropriate:
It’s like saying you shouldn’t compare Victorian Lit. with 21st Century British Lit. because they’re from completely time periods with completely different standards. Yeah, so? They’re both also in English, presumably stem from the same country, and both in English. Is it okay to like one more than the other? Absolutely! Is it okay to compare them. YES.
I'm perfectly aware of what FE11 is, "in its own right." That doesn't prevent me from making comparisons between it and other entries, and it doesn't make me a "blathering fool" for doing so, either.
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:11 pm
I'd say ATB is pretty damn close to turn based, it's not a mash "A" ARPG, it still requires menus and commands, so yes, yes it is completely debatable, but this isn't about Final Fantasy, it's about trying to compare I to X, go right ahead, you'll just look like an idiot doing so.
Don't you think you're just setting unreachable standards? What I mean is, even if they incorporated these completely unnecessary things, you'd just want more and more. Say they had the rescue in this, okay, then you'd just b***h and moan about the lack of skills. Put skills in this, you'd moan about characterization. The plot remains untouched if you ask me, for the trillionth and ninth time, this is a remake of FE1, I don't want new s**t, FEDS2 looks pretty ******** up thanks to the new story they added, new characterization is no exception.
Really? When I hear people b***h and moan about FEDS, it's usually regarding the story and how it's not equal to the later series and that just pisses me right off. I don't mind saying the gameplay isn't on par, but they tried their best to make this an okay game, it's all I can ask as a half assed FE fan I am. And yes, I am being an a*****e to the NA fanbase, myself included as I am a second generation North American if you didn't know. I won't go into details of why I'm being an a** to the NA fanbase out of fear of offending someone, but I sort of hold a grudge against them for this game, and that's where I'll stop as I don't want to get out of line with this.
Yes, but you don't hear me blather on of how disappointing the story of FEDS was in comparison to... like call me an idiot if you must for defending FEDS, I don't care, at least I know how to respect a remake of a classic and be thankful that IS even considered remaking this game for us.
So then why compare if as you said: "is a remake of an old game"? I'm still failing to see this. Maybe it's my ignorance, I don't know, but it just doesn't add up. I know people aren't going to like the older game, that much I know, but every time I hear someone say that the story is lacking in comparison to the later series, it just sounds like the most obvious, idiotic thing to say.
And I'm a newbie ROM hacker, I don't know a lick about English literature, but I do know that in the 1990s, the data for the game was limited in terms of how much story you can cram into one game compared to.. let's say FE9.
Of course, the human mind is unlimited in intelligence and paper is relatively unlimited as well, so you can't honestly say to me that FE1's story is comparable to FE9's as sadly, as much as I wish, the Famicom is not unlimited in size to pull out such an amazing story out of its a** in comparison to the later systems where text is virtually endless to drag a story on as much as it wants.
Go ahead, if you want compare Marth to Ike, you'll always be right that Ike has a better story, but just bear in mind: I'll always be giggling like a little girl knowing that you just stated the obvious and "looked like an idiot" by doing so.
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:24 pm
Yeah, seemed it was a matter of definition, then. Moving on...
No, I don't think I'm setting unreasonable standards. Everything mentioned thus far has been in other games at some point, so it's hardly unreachable. I'm not asking that they all be put in, either. FE10 got so much s**t for how it handled supports (and gets called plot dumb all the time), but still gets lots of love for how it handled it's gameplay. None of the previous games had everything and it would be unreasonable to expect one to. Incorporating some of the things discussed would have made the game much better received, though, I think. And I'm quite excited about the things they've done with FE12. At least some of them. But this isn't about that.
I hear people b***h about the gameplay, usually. People bitching about the plot need to get a clue, I completely agree. If gameplay complaints are legit and plot complaints aren't, I'd suspect we're actually on the same page. Or at least adjacent pages.
Old games are still games. I see a lot of people on other forums call FE7 old, in fact. I completely agree about bitching about the plot. Old plot is old. I mean, you can compare the plots for similarities and differences, but the plots necessarily have to remain as they are. Gameplay complaints, which are what I'm concerned with, are legit. And criticizing everything wrong with a game is not the same as disrespecting it, by the way.
Yeah, all I'm seeing at this point is that comparing story isn't fair. I quite agree (well, you can compare them, but you canNOT hold FE11's plot against it as a remake). Gameplay? Go for it.
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:56 am
Supports were originally like that, so why change it into fruity convos? Like I said, which has yet to be fully countered, it'd be such a b***h in the a** to give 8/10 of characters who don't have personalities, personalities. So I'm happy with the supports this way. Also, it's not like they didn't add dialogue here and there, Sheeda -> Oguma convo, Macedonian Whitewings -> Their sisters and Minerva, etc, anyone? And another battle of opinions regarding FE12, I think it's best we not get into this as you cannot for the life of you convince me all the new s**t they added in FE12 is good for the story. :l
It's good to see we agree on the storyline part, that's my main beef with the anti-FEDS butthurts. I can live without a heart attack if someone tells me the gameplay is lacking, but when they compare the story to the later series, it just pisses me off to no end.
Bear in mind, old games are still old games. In light to all the "improvements" (see: thirteen years between FE1 and 7) the series has gone under that time, I'd say FE7 =/= FE1. However, I understand that FEDS =/= FE1 in this form of argument. However, like I said, play one chapter of FE1 and tell me that the gameplay has improved 180 degrees. I mean, being able to see your attack range IS a big difference, and need I mention how different the enemy AI is? They tried to change the gameplay while trying to keep the "FE1" feel FD, they really did, but everyone wants more. They don't want some remake of FE1, they just want a clone of FE7 gameplay wise, I think your list of suggestions to "improve" the game proves it.
Glad to see we're on the same page on story, but comparing a remake of FE1 to a game thirteen years in the future still doesn't quite add up for me.
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Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 9:51 pm
I feel kind of dropping this post and then getting busy for months. Thanks for giving me a straight answer (I've tried wiki and google for the answer... just a massive maze of misleading and vague answers that makes you feel like you missed a couple scores of games.) Anyways, I will hopefully be joining this group a bit more personally since I'm starting to shift into my summer lul. Anyone who knows the chairman from the Mystery of Edwin Drood can understand how much work I have had... not to mention school.
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