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 Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:11 am
Really basic question, but I've been reading online to my dismay that ず and づ, and じ and ぢ are IDENTICALLY pronounced. But I can hear a distinct difference between them. ず = zu, づ = dzu, じ = ji, and ぢ = dji. There's a "d" sound stuck before the "zu" and "ji" in the latter cases. Or is it just my imagination?? Because it seems like every single site I look it up on is saying that they're pronounced 100% identically. Yet from my experience they're not. Have I been pronouncing a couple of syllables wrong the past 4 years? >_>
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:35 am
Linguistically, yes, they are pronounced the same, but you are also right that in the "voiced" versions there is a 'd' pronounced in front of tsu with tenten (mark mark) and chi with tenten (and even shi with tenten). However there are a few instances when you will use the tenten versions.
First instance is when these sounds are repeated with each other the second becomes voiced (which is what the tenten signifies, a voiced sound)
Examples:
続く － つづく
縮む － ちぢむ
約まる － つづまる
Second instance, is when combining kanji together and the second kanji starts with ち or つ , they also become voiced.
Examples:
はな＋ち －＞ はなぢ （鼻血）
そこ＋ちから －＞ そこぢから （底力）
にい＋つま －＞ にいづま （新妻）
The last instance is a colloquialization, if you will, where one is easier to say than the other and either is fine is accepted by the general public and/or regionally.
Examples:
かたず －＞ かたづ
せかいじょう －＞ せかいぢょう
うなずく －＞ うなづく
To just recap about the pronunciations though, as a general rule, most of the first 5 or 6 syllable sets (ka through ho basically) the original versions of these are "unvoiced" while the tenten (mark mark) indicates a "voiced" sound. This is why か and が are distinguished characters from one another. (if you want to test it out, put your hand on your throat and pronounce a 'k' sounds and then pronounce a 'g' sound. You will find that it is the same parts of your mouth and throat that are working and the only thing that is different is the voice.) In the same way, think of す and ず and then think of the same pattern つ and づ, ち and ぢ, し and じ. If you think of them in pairs this way, it is easier to hear the difference in the voiced versions.
I hope this helped a little bit to clear up your confusion *^_^*
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Ivy Lana Lee Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:51 am
Ukryu Really basic question, but I've been reading online to my dismay that ず and づ, and じ and ぢ are IDENTICALLY pronounced. But I can hear a distinct difference between them. ず = zu, づ = dzu, じ = ji, and ぢ = dji. There's a "d" sound stuck before the "zu" and "ji" in the latter cases. Or is it just my imagination?? Because it seems like every single site I look it up on is saying that they're pronounced 100% identically. Yet from my experience they're not. Have I been pronouncing a couple of syllables wrong the past 4 years? >_> Yeah, it is a little confusing. Actually, for many years I made the "d" noise. For example: 続く = つづく I would try to pronounce this as "Tsudzuku." However, they are pronounced identically. In fact, I've been corrected by teachers. Not only that, but some Japanese people did not understand me when I tried to pronounce it that way. So just say zu for づ and ji for じ. I was seriously miffed when I realized that it was done this way, too, if it makes you feel any better, lol.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:10 pm
Ah, so they are pronounced identically? >.< Well thanks guys...
@Ellembri: I knew about the second and third instances but not the first. Is that a rule that applies to some words but not all? Because I know a few words like 包む（つつむ） where the sound is repeated but the 2nd syllable isn't voiced o.o
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:20 pm
This is good for us learners. FYI.... still freaked about level check test in less than 48 hours. I know I am freaking myself out. Here is why... if I don't pass... I may have to go home. I don't think I can spend 7 weeks in Japan without some structure.
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:07 am
Ukryu Ah, so they are pronounced identically? >.< Well thanks guys...
@Ellembri: I knew about the second and third instances but not the first. Is that a rule that applies to some words but not all? Because I know a few words like 包む（つつむ） where the sound is repeated but the 2nd syllable isn't voiced o.o Yes they are pronounced identically. You are using the same muscles in your mouth to make ち and し so it is only natural that the "voiced" versions are the same XD. For づ, though, it is more like ず. Hard to get a voice in there ne? For the first instance, I would say it's a general rule but not a law, there are excepts of course but 8 times out of 10 you will sound more natural by voicing the second repeated syllable. *^_^*
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