|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:37 pm
Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:15 pm
divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings. and i agree with that, 100% doesn't mean that we don't have a right to have emotions. just that we need to not let our emotions get in the way of doing the right thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:18 pm
divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:25 pm
brainnsoup divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph I feel we need to consider another fact- 9/11 wasn't very bad. Now, I know, it was tragic and awful and people died. But it wasn't even 3000 people. If we look at the civilians killed by Americans, it's in the millions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, killed equal to 100 or more 9/11's. Hell, we killed more CIVILIANS in our subsequent bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq than died in 9/11. We b***h and moan and complain over this tiny scratch, because WE are America, the biggest and the best to ever exist. We're like the bully who justifies in his mind bloodying noses for lunch money, but we cry when we get hit back and get a bruise. I'm frankly sick of this "never forget" 9/11 bullshit. What we've been through is NOTHING compared to the terror we've been unleash on the world since world war 2. dude, what the ********!? scream this isn't a competition, it isn't about relative damage! 9/11 was still bad, even if it is nothing compared to the rest of the world! i don't think we need to compare it to anything! acts of terrorism are meant to frighten and demoralize people. and 9/11 did that, obviously. the damage isn't all in deaths. it's in the little details, the social division, the fear, the racism, the religious persecution, all the things that come with fear. my family went from middle class to lower class in all of 48 hours when 9/11 happened, BECAUSE MY STEPDAD WAS INDIAN AND AN IMMIGRANT!! that is a product of FEAR! that is an example of the damage inflicted during 9/11! so i sympathize, very strongly, with the people who oppose these Islamic presences. i don't agree with them, i think they are being stupid and wrong. but i understand why they are so afraid! and i still feel the sting of 9/11, and always will! so DON"T pass it off so lightly! evil it IS serious, and it IS a huge and festering wound! Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:36 am
brainnsoup Woah, wait... What?! No, just... Just give me a second, I never expected that I'd ever be debating the idea that we deserved 9/11.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents. Thank you soup! I am sorry but I have to agree that the conversation was taking a disturbing bent... I would like to point out that all the s**t of the past wasn't necessarily "US Citizens". Allot of the stuff brought up was done by French, Spaniards, and English countrymen before the USA was the USA. The slaves weren't put into slavery by the "Americans" They were enslaved by their own people and sold. Not sayin' it's right, but why do modern US Americans get the brunt of the consequences? There is schiesty stuff happening all around the world. Anyway, to get back on topic, it's stupid to prevent a mosque from being erected near the site. I think It's a novel idea. A passive statement for the Muslim community to say that they are victims as well. Not only were there also innocent Muslim lives lost, the damage to their reputations has been devastating as well. Besides, how far is far enough to those who fear? There is no logical grounds to deny it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:39 pm
divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:28 pm
brainnsoup divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph Yes, we SHOULD compare. If we are doing the exact same thing, or at the very least, something oddly similar, we're hypocrites to be shocked when it happens to us. We're hypocrites to say that such acts are the worst violations against morality and humanity and the turn around and do it again, after doing it for 50 years before that. And you think our little display of nuclear weapons in the late 40's wasn't terrorism? You think our help in the setup of Saddam was not a manipulation of governments and populations through violence? What I'm saying isn't that it didn't happen, I'm saying we, ourselves, have done FAR worse. So our complaining over seeing it firsthand is a bit stupid. If what we went through is a "festering wound", then what we have inflicted is complete amputation, followed by pissing on the stumps. i'm not saying to let ourselves off the hook for hat we did, but that we should hold EVERYONE, ourselves and othrs, to the same standards. and that it is a matter of Honour, Compassion, and Sympathy. these Muslims want to build this building as a way of making nice with non-muslim americans. but the simple fact that the location they chose offends people only hurts their own intentions. thus, it's not smart. on the other hand, the american people are thinking that just because they are buttsore about it, that they don't have to honour these Muslim Americans' Civil Rights. which is BS on the part of the non-muslims. we have to respect the feelings of the american people, no matter their religion, and no matter what the american people have done. i'm not saying that just because we do that we are off the hook for the terrible things we did, but to deny ourselves our own grievences isn't the way to pay for what we've done. I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.I don't think you get what I'm putting out here. Our government has killed other government's civilians on the behalf of our civilians. So when their groups kill our civilians on behalf of their civilians- do I even need to complete the cycle of violence here? 9/11 happened because we allowed our government to do these things. I never said it was justice or justified. I'm saying that, considering our actions, we have no right to recoil when we get a taste of our own medicine. We're willing to reap the benefits of terrorism, but when it comes against us it's suddenly wrong?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:25 am
divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.I don't think you get what I'm putting out here. Our government has killed other government's civilians on the behalf of our civilians. So when their groups kill our civilians on behalf of their civilians- do I even need to complete the cycle of violence here? 9/11 happened because we allowed our government to do these things. I never said it was justice or justified. I'm saying that, considering our actions, we have no right to recoil when we get a taste of our own medicine. We're willing to reap the benefits of terrorism, but when it comes against us it's suddenly wrong? no right to recoil? i can never believe that. everyone has th eright to defend themselves, no matter who started it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:15 am
Chieftain Twilight divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph I agree that we should be objective. However, unfortunately, if we are objective, we deserve to be wiped out, as a country. Not all of us are a part of it, of course- But as a country, we're dicks. And I feel that's the reason we provoked 9/11 to begin with- What went around came around, but at a fraction of what we put out. We should consider ourselves lucky that retribution wasn't worse. No, the way we repent is to simply STOP doing what we're doing to cause problems. Stop setting up puppet governments for trade routes. Stop war profiteering. Stop aiding one (or both) sides in a war for both of the above reasons. Stop demanding low prices and forcing the economies of other countries to rely on an extremely poor workforce, as the costs cut are in labor. (Mostly China. That's why their conditions are so bad, primarily.) Basically, stop being worldwide dicks. If we don't provoke an attack, one won't happen. And to do that, all we really have to do is act like intelligent, reasonable, non-destructive human beings.
Okay, yes, America has pulled some pretty really ******** up stuff in the past. No question. How does killing civilians fix that? What does it even have to do with anything? Really, how many of the people that died that day had anything to do with slavery, or the genocide of the Native Americans, or the bombing of Hiroshima?
It wasn't a calculated act of vengeance, it was an act of insanity!
And this way of thinking is exactly the problem! This "America has done horrible things in the past so Americans deserved to die" mentality is just like the "Muslims killed Americans so Muslims to need to pay" way of thinking.
They're both wrong.
You're grouping people together because it's easy. Not smart. Not right. Just easy.
And in the end all it accomplishes is creating more dead innocents.I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.I don't think you get what I'm putting out here. Our government has killed other government's civilians on the behalf of our civilians. So when their groups kill our civilians on behalf of their civilians- do I even need to complete the cycle of violence here? 9/11 happened because we allowed our government to do these things. I never said it was justice or justified. I'm saying that, considering our actions, we have no right to recoil when we get a taste of our own medicine. We're willing to reap the benefits of terrorism, but when it comes against us it's suddenly wrong? no right to recoil? i can never believe that. everyone has th eright to defend themselves, no matter who started it. Doesn't that just lead to war? I slap you, so you punch me, so I stab you, so you shoot me, so I burn down your house and kill your dog, so you mail bomb my hometown, so I unleash chemical agents in your state's drinking water... No, what we need to do is find out WHY I slapped you in the first place. It turns out, you took my candy bar. Apologize and offer me a new one and we avoid all the bullshit that comes from retaliation. It's basic karma.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:45 am
divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.I don't think you get what I'm putting out here. Our government has killed other government's civilians on the behalf of our civilians. So when their groups kill our civilians on behalf of their civilians- do I even need to complete the cycle of violence here? 9/11 happened because we allowed our government to do these things. I never said it was justice or justified. I'm saying that, considering our actions, we have no right to recoil when we get a taste of our own medicine. We're willing to reap the benefits of terrorism, but when it comes against us it's suddenly wrong? no right to recoil? i can never believe that. everyone has th eright to defend themselves, no matter who started it. Doesn't that just lead to war? I slap you, so you punch me, so I stab you, so you shoot me, so I burn down your house and kill your dog, so you mail bomb my hometown, so I unleash chemical agents in your state's drinking water... No, what we need to do is find out WHY I slapped you in the first place. It turns out, you took my candy bar. Apologize and offer me a new one and we avoid all the bullshit that comes from retaliation. It's basic karma. i'm NOT advocating the one-up game, or even the "get-even" game. stare i'm simply stating the Right to Defend oneself. i believe that Fiscal Responsibility is important. we should have the foresight and hindsight and insight to make a responsible decision that doens't lead to more violence and problems. but we shouldn't have our Right to make a stupid decision taken away. that's unamerican. now, we have a system that determines whether or not we go to War. before it can be declared the decision must be put to a Vote in the Legislative Branch. after going through all the usual formalities, if the decision is approved it goes back to the Executive Branch where it becomes Declared. that's what it means to live in a Republic, and it is a good thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:34 pm
Chieftain Twilight Bharatiyaa_ larki Call Me Apple Emet_Paladin of Truth because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. Okay, because you said this, you lose ANY credit to having a brain. Leave now. Indeed.. plus I really don't understand what that had to do with anything. hey now, you two, he's got a point actually. o_O; and he doesn't need to leave just cause he feels this way about it. look, in a way, he's pretty close to the mark. he's over-exaggerating the level of racism of the state of Louisianna (because come on, not everywhere there is gonna shoot black people... just alot of people here), but it definitely illustrates a very true sentiment about the Mosque. the people of New York are afraid, and they won't be happy to see that building there. he's not spewing forthe hatred against Islam, he's saying the same thing i am. any thoughts that these Muslims had that this building would help bring americans together across religious lines was naive, and this placement was not at all a smart idea. it hurts their own cause. they had intentions of making peace with people who don't want peace. and the way they thought they could do it is by doing something that they should have realized would only aggrivate people's emotions. so please, both of you, chill out. o_O; I personally don't see a problem with the Mosque being build near the world trade center.. besides every where you look there are churches everywhere. And like Call Me Apple said.. you can't even SEE the mosque if you were at the world trade center, it perhaps other Muslims like my self just want another place to worship Allah. What's the problem with that? Just because a couple of guys who happened to be Muslim extermist destroyed the twin towers doesn't mean that the anger of people should be directed to the Muslims living in the US. It's not fair let them build their mosque, it's not hurting anyone. Personally I think that this is just something that people are bringing up about to moan about.. and it's getting really annoying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:14 pm
divineseraph Chieftain Twilight divineseraph brainnsoup divineseraph I'm not saying that we were attacked directly because of slavery or using nuclear weapons on japan, or Vietnam. I'm saying that if we continue to ACT that way, we shouldn't be surprised when someone gets pissed and fights back. We have ******** with the middle east for at least 50 years, which is where Al Queda comes in. They've seen our double dealing and war profiteering. They were our puppets against the USSR, promised that things would change- Until the next decade when we aid their enemies. It WAS retaliation for our direct actions. They had actually attempted protest and negotiation, but do you think the great superpower is going to listen or give a ******** about some dumb camel-jockeys using outdated weapons in the backwards, violent middle east? Had anyone even really heard of Al Queda before 9/11? They did it to gain awareness, to say "You'd better listen to what we're asking now, because we're pissed and we're serious." I'm not saying it's the best idea, or the best strategy, or a justified one, but I understand it. What I'm saying is this- We have our fingers in far too many pies. We shouldn't be surprised when we get burned.
And yes, our government is involved in some dirty dealings (who's isn't?), but neither I, nor you, or anybody else who isn't directly involved in them have any real sway them.
You're burning people who's hands are pie-free.I don't think you get what I'm putting out here. Our government has killed other government's civilians on the behalf of our civilians. So when their groups kill our civilians on behalf of their civilians- do I even need to complete the cycle of violence here? 9/11 happened because we allowed our government to do these things. I never said it was justice or justified. I'm saying that, considering our actions, we have no right to recoil when we get a taste of our own medicine. We're willing to reap the benefits of terrorism, but when it comes against us it's suddenly wrong? no right to recoil? i can never believe that. everyone has th eright to defend themselves, no matter who started it. Doesn't that just lead to war? I slap you, so you punch me, so I stab you, so you shoot me, so I burn down your house and kill your dog, so you mail bomb my hometown, so I unleash chemical agents in your state's drinking water... No, what we need to do is find out WHY I slapped you in the first place. It turns out, you took my candy bar. Apologize and offer me a new one and we avoid all the bullshit that comes from retaliation. It's basic karma.
A good Hindu wouldn't slap me for taking his candy bar...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:36 am
Bharatiyaa_ larki Chieftain Twilight Bharatiyaa_ larki Call Me Apple Emet_Paladin of Truth because even if they did, it would not be a good idea. It'd be like putting a BET filming studio in louisiana. Okay, because you said this, you lose ANY credit to having a brain. Leave now. Indeed.. plus I really don't understand what that had to do with anything. hey now, you two, he's got a point actually. o_O; and he doesn't need to leave just cause he feels this way about it. look, in a way, he's pretty close to the mark. he's over-exaggerating the level of racism of the state of Louisianna (because come on, not everywhere there is gonna shoot black people... just alot of people here), but it definitely illustrates a very true sentiment about the Mosque. the people of New York are afraid, and they won't be happy to see that building there. he's not spewing forthe hatred against Islam, he's saying the same thing i am. any thoughts that these Muslims had that this building would help bring americans together across religious lines was naive, and this placement was not at all a smart idea. it hurts their own cause. they had intentions of making peace with people who don't want peace. and the way they thought they could do it is by doing something that they should have realized would only aggrivate people's emotions. so please, both of you, chill out. o_O; I personally don't see a problem with the Mosque being build near the world trade center.. besides every where you look there are churches everywhere. And like Call Me Apple said.. you can't even SEE the mosque if you were at the world trade center, it perhaps other Muslims like my self just want another place to worship Allah. What's the problem with that? Just because a couple of guys who happened to be Muslim extermist destroyed the twin towers doesn't mean that the anger of people should be directed to the Muslims living in the US. It's not fair let them build their mosque, it's not hurting anyone. Personally I think that this is just something that people are bringing up about to moan about.. and it's getting really annoying. your missing my point. confused these haters are NOT being rational, or fair. they are afraid. i'm not saying it's right to let these frightened non-muslim americans discriminate against the Muslim americans. and i stand by in support of their Right to build the Mosque. but they should have known that this would happen. anyone could have seen this coming! i didn't think that they would be so stupid as to bother trying! i thought they also knew that this would happen! but also, me being the guy in the middle, i have now become angry at the Pro-Mosque side as well! for a lack of Integrity (they meet with resistance and hatred, so instead of sticking to the main goal of making peace, they fight back with hostility for their Rights, and even say that anyone trying to seek a peaceful resolution without an ultimatum isn't helping), and an equal and opposite bias full of self-righteous false accusations! this woman, sherry wolf, called out my home city (Gainesville, Florida) and said that we're all muslim-hating bigots! it's ******** lies! G-ville is the most Liberal city on all of Florida, and we LOVE our Muslims here! we don't have many Mosques and Islamic Centers as othe places, but there is at least one in every part of the city! and we're a University city that sees ALOT of Cultural Integration, and support it 100%! i've never heard of any "burn the quran day". that doesn't exist! there are two extremes butting heads, and they are both being bigotrous and biased. they don't WANT to work things out, they want to have a civil war! it's people in the Middle, who may lean towards one side over the other, that i fall in with and respect. evil and ******** all of the haters on either sides extreme! stressed http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/big-gay-welcome-wagon/2010/08/sherry-wolf-debates-ground-zero-mosque-on-msnbcs-hardball-with-chris-matthews.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:08 pm
Captain_Shinzo Discuss whether the Islamic church being built in New York near the happening of 9/11 should be built or not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
