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 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:50 am
This falling under the heading of "deuterocanonical", or NT Apocrypha. The Roman Catholics and the Ethiopian Orthdox accept it, but most Protestants don't. And it's written anonymously, so we don't know if it's authentic, or edits of early Christian teachings, or what. Though I admit, from a cursory glance, it looks more ... contemporary to Christ than some sources.
Still, I didn't mean to drag us off-topic. Back to OSAS.
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:41 am
Dragonbait This falling under the heading of "deuterocanonical", or NT Apocrypha. The Roman Catholics and the Ethiopian Orthdox accept it, but most Protestants don't. And it's written anonymously, so we don't know if it's authentic, or edits of early Christian teachings, or what. Though I admit, from a cursory glance, it looks more ... contemporary to Christ than some sources. Still, I didn't mean to drag us off-topic. Back to OSAS. I politely disagree Bait....IMO this is on topic....it helps to prove the legitimacy of one doctrine over the other. You are right that this writing wasn't accepted by most churches as canon, but the reason was largely because of it's "literary value" not it's accuracy. It is a fairly short and direct piece, written almost as if it is a a list of early church doctrine. A "synopsis" if you will, covering a wide variety of the church's early beliefs, (Though I don't agree with chapters even in Scripture because they are man made, not inspired, this writting contains 8 "chapters" None of which contradict canonized Scripture.) Many believe that it was written during the first Apostolic Council Acts 15:28 and was hand delivered by Paul to the Antioch church. Because of this, and the date it was believed to have been written, and circulated, it is very useful IMHO in determining where the early church stood on various issues concerning Church doctrine, including Salvation.
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:50 pm
I don't see where you're getting you can lose your salvation from Hebrews 6. It reads hypothetical to me in that if you could lose it, you could never be saved again because Christ isn't going to die a second time, which would have to happen in order to be saved a second time.
And no, I'm not saying any of the apostles had it wrong, far from it. I go by what I read in the Word of God, and I try to match it up with other verses, etc. And as I said before, in case you missed it (and I'm guessing you did), I don't agree with Calvinism. That doesn't mean I will automatically go by what 2nd and 3rd century church leaders say either. We all have to take it with a grain of salt and match it with what God's Word says. If you say that those leaders you mentioned did not believe in security of the Believer, then I will disagree.
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:26 pm
Xiterrose I don't see where you're getting you can lose your salvation from Hebrews 6. It reads hypothetical to me in that if you could lose it, you could never be saved again because Christ isn't going to die a second time, which would have to happen in order to be saved a second time. And no, I'm not saying any of the apostles had it wrong, far from it. I go by what I read in the Word of God, and I try to match it up with other verses, etc. And as I said before, in case you missed it (and I'm guessing you did), I don't agree with Calvinism. That doesn't mean I will automatically go by what 2nd and 3rd century church leaders say either. We all have to take it with a grain of salt and match it with what God's Word says. If you say that those leaders you mentioned did not believe in security of the Believer, then I will disagree. If you read the Heb 6 Scripture in context (the verses before and after) as well as the entire book it is pretty clear whether or not you can loose your salvation. Heb 6:7-8 (The chapter where you say Paul is clear about not loosing ones salvation is not so clear when you read it in context. In fact it is not clear to me at all. To me it says quite the opposite ) 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, These people were obviously saved at one time 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. These verses in Heb are directly followed by a parable: (on this point it is important to remember that the original Scripture did not contain chapters, verses , paragraph breaks or periods) So the following text is a direct continuation of what was being said in v.6. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, by implication saved and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. The Book of Hebrews was written to Jews who had confessed Jesus as their Savior and had been disciples. They were now thinking of returning to Judisam. The writer(s) of Hebrews were trying to convince them not to do so by telling them how difficult (if not impossible)it would be to return because their public witness would be permanently destroyed...they would be making a mockery out of Christ's Sacrifice and ability to change lives through freedom from the law. If you look at the ENTIRE BOOK of Hebrews you will see at least 5 other referrances where the writer emphasis the possibly of an individual loosing their salvation. So your idea that Heb 6 confirms OSAS contradicts the entire book of Hebrews. Heb2: 1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. Heb2:4 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession3:12 Beware, brethren considered to be brothers in Christ=believers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Heb4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Why would Paul exhort them to be diligent to enter the rest lest anyone fall? I would think this means it must be possible to fall.
Why would this say we will one day have to give God an account if simply "believing " is enough?Heb.5:9 He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,PS. The writings I was quoting from were not from the second or third century they were written not even 100years after the death of Christ. And how can you not believe in Calvanism at least in part if you are a believer in HIS doctrine of OSAS?
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:27 pm
And again, to me, it goes back to 1 John 2 where it talks about those who went out from us, that they were never among us. They were never true believers to begin with. Same as in regards to the end of Hebrews 3, they did not believe.
Also in Hebrews 3, exhort means to encourage, so we should encourage one another daily, to do what is right.
In the KJV, Hebrews 2:1 reads, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip." In that context, it is saying we should not let the words we hear slip.
Sometimes we, as Christians, can become complacent or harden our hearts for a time, or choose to disobey God for a time. That doesn't mean He loves us any less or that we lose our salvation. If we really are saved, we'll either come back to God in time and we'll probably be discpined for things, or He might take us out of this world if we become a hindrance. If someone is not truly saved, then they won't come back at all.
Works do not save you or anyone else. Thankfully they don't save me, because I sure couldn't do enough. We all fall short, and only by His grace are we saved. If you want to add works to salvation, then please take it elsewhere. I do agree we should obey His Word and be witnesses to those around us by the words we speak and actions.
In regards to you saying that I'm trying to say the 12 apostles are wrong, Bait and Deidra, that is wrong and taken out of context in itself. I was referring to the "early church leaders" that Deidra had mentioned by name, Iraneous? and the others. I suppose I should have mentioned that earlier, but I didn't think I had to since you yourself mentioned them as "early church leaders." That aside, the Apostles themselves were not church leaders, they were ones who had direct teaching from Christ. There were even some who they instructed that got away from the teaching the apostles themselves received.
Once saved, always saved is not the same thing as predestination, as Calvinists believe.
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:04 am
Xiterrose And again, to me, it goes back to 1 John 2 where it talks about those who went out from us, that they were never among us. They were never true believers to begin with. Same as in regards to the end of Hebrews 3, they did not believe. You are so quick to say that others fell away because they did not BELIEVE in the first place. Not just in the above Scripture but but what you are basing your OSAS doctrine on.
So let me ask you.....do you really believe?
These are Jesus' words...not mine.
John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
WOW...are you working miracles, walking as Jesus' did without sin?
Be careful when you weild that sword my friend, it may just come back to bite you. XI there is no debating this doctrine with you. You continue to pull one line of Scripture out of an entire passage and use it to support your beliefs. NO ONE has said that there won't be those amongsts us that don't really believe. We all know that their will be...that's a moot point. That is NOT the message of 1John2...The message of 1John 2 is that we should guard ourselves against those that are outside ("antichrists") lest they entice us, and if we continue in sin we are not of Him either.
Now why would the author of this book be cautioning us of these things if it was not possible for us to be led astray in our faith through their messages, or the deceitfulness of sin if we are permanently saved?
Also in Hebrews 3, exhort means to encourage, so we should encourage one another daily, to do what is right. Exactly...so that WE DON'T Fall into sin.
Now why would that matter if we were already saved?In the KJV, Hebrews 2:1 reads, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip." In that context, it is saying we should not let the words we hear slip. 1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Tell me why would it be important not to let them slip if there was no consequences concerning our salvation?
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Sometimes we, as Christians, can become complacent or harden our hearts for a time, or choose to disobey God for a time. That doesn't mean He loves us any less or that we lose our salvation. If we really are saved, we'll either come back to God in time and we'll probably be discpined for things, or He might take us out of this world if we become a hindrance. If someone is not truly saved, then they won't come back at all. Works do not save you or anyone else. Thankfully they don't save me, because I sure couldn't do enough. We all fall short, and only by His grace are we saved. If you want to add works to salvation, then please take it elsewhere. I do agree we should obey His Word and be witnesses to those around us by the words we speak and actions. No one has said that works will save us. But works are what shows the world that we believe. And obedience is what shows God that we believe.In regards to you saying that I'm trying to say the 12 apostles are wrong, Bait and Deidra, that is wrong and taken out of context in itself. I was referring to the "early church leaders" that Deidra had mentioned by name, Iraneous? and the others. I suppose I should have mentioned that earlier, but I didn't think I had to since you yourself mentioned them as "early church leaders." That aside, the Apostles themselves were not church leaders, Where did that come from? Are you really saying that Paul was not a church leader? Perhaps you are right in symantic only. APOSTLES ARE ABOVE church leaders. Their job is to keep the church leaders straight. they were ones who had direct teaching from Christ. EXACTLY-but you are saying they were wrong There were even some who they instructed that got away from the teaching the apostles themselves received. Even those men Iraneous ect. were not "decades"(your words in later post) after Jesus death.Once saved, always saved is not the same thing as predestination, as Calvinists believe.
In one last word I will suggest that YOU get out a piece of paper and go through the Entire New Testament listing in 2 categories those Scripture that support OSAS and those that do not. Then draw your own conclusions...
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:02 am
Xiterrose In regards to you saying that I'm trying to say the 12 apostles are wrong, Bait and Deidra, that is wrong and taken out of context in itself. I was referring to the "early church leaders" that Deidra had mentioned by name, Iraneous? and the others. I suppose I should have mentioned that earlier, but I didn't think I had to since you yourself mentioned them as "early church leaders." That aside, the Apostles themselves were not church leaders, they were ones who had direct teaching from Christ. There were even some who they instructed that got away from the teaching the apostles themselves received. My mistake; I misread you ... rather, I didn't read back properly. (By the by, Irenaeus was 2nd century; died around 202. He was a grand-student (student of a student) of John the Evangelist.) For the record, let me state that I see a third option untouched by either of you ... and it deals with those who fall away, and want to return. The Bible says it's impossible; the Bible also tells us to urge people to return, implying it's quite possible. Bear with me, there's a reason I bring this up, and it'll make sense in a little bit. Now, for my own part (and then I'll pass on any more arguing, since I don't think changing your mind is very likely; I'm just defending my own position) ... ... I've mentioned in the past (in this very thread, in fact) that there are a number of verses in the New Testament urging us to "continue in Christ" ... and almost a third of these deal with people who didn't "continue". This would indicate that OSAS is false. There are, to be fair, a number of verses that do seem to imply that OSAS is valid ... including a few words from Jesus Himself. I admit this. So, I concede that there's verses against OSAS, and I concede that there's verses for OSAS. What I don't concede is your definition of "belief" -- someone who "believes", but then fails to act on said belief or later abandons said belief (and those are two separate things, please note), never actually had that belief in the first place? Belief is defined retroactively? By that logic, not a single one of us ever believed in Santa Claus; that's a belief we once had, but later turned away from it. Now, I'll admit, I used to believe in Santa ... I don't anymore, but I used to. By your logic, I never believed in Santa. It is not your place to tell me what belief is in my heart, nor is it my place to tell you what belief is in yours. We can only tell what God Himself has told us about the human heart; it's deceitful and wicked. Trying to redefine "belief" is splitting hairs ... and I don't have enough hairs left on my skull to try to split. It's worse; it's tearing at the basic language we all try to speak, changing the meanings of words to suit the speaker. I see no evidence for that definition of "belief" in the Bible, nor do I see it in Webster's Dictionary. This idea I will call "poppycock", in the full undestanding of what that word really means. Getting back to OSAS ... if it's true, then those who act as though it's false stand to lose nothing; they stood firm even when they didn't have to. And if it's false, then those who act as though it's true stand to lose everything; they wavered and drifted away from the "straight and narrow", hoping they could make their way back. Personally, I'd rather be in the "lose nothing" category; I'm going with the opinion that it's bogus. But I'm not going to totally abandon the idea that it might be true ... because that gives hope to those who do drift away, then repent and try to return to Him. And, to quote Tom Hanks' most memorable role ... Forrest Gump That's all I have to say about that.
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:08 pm
I think we're both at the end of this debate.
I knew last night that that was probably going to be my last post on the matter, because we each have established our own beliefs, and like Bait pointed out, there is evidence for both cases in the Word.
I do not agree that one can lose their salvation, and I don't think I ever will agree to that; just as you will most likely never believe in eternal security.
So we'll just leave it at that.
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:37 am
Xiterrose I think we're both at the end of this debate. I knew last night that that was probably going to be my last post on the matter, because we each have established our own beliefs, and like Bait pointed out, there is evidence for both cases in the Word. I do not agree that one can lose their salvation, and I don't think I ever will agree to that; just as you will most likely never believe in eternal security. So we'll just leave it at that. XI I have been studying the Bible for probably as many years as you have walked this earth, and I learn something new everyday. Please don't insinuate that I am unteachable or unbendable in my beliefs. Or think that I am saying that I know everything on this topic. I don't! I have a friend who also believes OSAS, and her and I have spent MANY hours talking about this, and matters pertaining to Salvation. It is out of those discussions, and Bible study that I came to my current stand on OSAS. After going through the Bible line by line (years ago), I have come up with over 40 verses (Going as far back as Genesis and completing in Revelation) that support my current view. If I were to do the same thing today I would probably come up with more. My list of pro's and cons is written in the back of my Bible, and as I currently read Scripture I place new evidence in the appropriate side. Should you, my friend, or anyone else come up with a plausible argument to the contray I will most certainly listen with an open mind, and change my point of view if it is wrong. But as of yet no such evidence has been given. I am not looking to be right in this debate, I am looking for the TRUTH. As I said before, if you (or anyone else) are also looking for the Truth, and not just arguments to support your views, go through the Bible line by line (with an open mind) and come to your own conclusions. Don't base your eternal life and Salvation on 3-4 Scriptures, pulled out of context and the rhetoric taught to you over the years, base it on the entirety of Scripture. You have too much too loose if you are by chance wrong on this subject!
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:31 pm
There are many verses to support my beliefs. Works do not save or maintain salvation, but it is rewarded. I read the verses around what I was posting and I believe what I posted was in context, and matched up with other verses. It's not just "rhetoric" I've been taught.
Besides, if you want to talk about me posting single verses at a time, then don't do the very same thing. Obviously we just have different interpretations of the context of Scripture.
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Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:06 pm
If you're interested in Calivinism, this guy is a big time adherent. He is manically crazy about most things that don't have to do with Calvinism, and has many outlandish and outdated arguments against other belief systems, such as Catholicism and Arminianism.
http://www.youtube.com/user/zkueker88?blend=1&ob=4
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Reply
