|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:17 am
Can't believe I forgot about this. Alexander Williams, Creation/AIG Governments around the world are wrestling with the controversial issue of embryonic stem cell research. The Australian Government's controversial support for research is based on the (mis)understanding that a 5-day-old embryo is a 'ball of cells...not a human being'. 1 This is a widely held view in the scientific world and would appear to give rational, if not moral, support for the government's Policy. But not any more. The 'ball of cells' concept is that the embryo is undifferentiated; that is, all cells are the same and no individual cells have yet been assigned their final destinations to become skin, hair, bone, blood, etc. Evidence supporting this view includes the fact that the embryo can be divided to produce multiple identical babies (twins, triplets, etc), and one or two cells can be removed form the 'ball' for genetic screening without apparent ill-effect. But all this has now changed Recent research has found that differentiation of the embryonic cells begins on the day of conception and may even be initiated by the point of entry of the sperm into the egg. 2 When egg and sperm unite, they produce a single new cell, called the 'zygote', and the zygote is the first cell in the body of the new baby. When the zygote undergoes its first cell division to produce a two-celled embryo, it now appears that these two cells form the top-tail axis for all subsequent development. In other words, which part will be the head, for instance, is determined 'up front'. And similar processes of orientation appear to continue during all subsequent cell divisions. The research has been in progress for more than a decade and early results that pointed in this direction were originally met with some hostility. Many people did not want to know that the early embryo may not be 'just a featureless blob of cells'. Why? Perhaps it reminded them that their experiments were dismembering a tiny person already in the process of formation. 3 Much work remains to be done to clarify the details, but it is certainly now clear that developmental biologists can no longer talk about the early embryo being a featureless blob of cells. But what about the evidence cited earlier supposedly supporting the 'blob' theory? It has been suggested that perhaps damage control mechanisms in the embryo are powerful enough to overcome the impact of early cell loss. If this is true, it does not negate the new findings, it simply underlines the fact that any such manipulation do cause damage to the embryo, and those who cause the damage need to take responsibility for their action. (See box below regarding the 'twins' argument.) Where does this leave the Australian government policy on embryonic stem cell research? It will certainly give the opponents of embryo experimentation a new weapon but it certainly won't change anything immediately because the Australian research will be carried out on unused IVF (Invetro fertalization) embryos that would otherwise be thrown out. This 'lesser of two evils' argument will probably carry the day. When that supply runs out, they expect to use donated embryos. 1 So for the present, the issue comes down to the question: 'Would you donate your embryonic children?' 41. Mallabone, M., Vanstone [Federal Government Minister] firm on cell reserach, the West Australian, 6 July 2002, p. 13
2. Pearson, P., Your destiny, form day one, Nature Science Update, 8 July 2002.
3. Pro-abortionists would also prefer to hold the embryo to be as 'less than human' as possible at any stage.
4. see also www.answersingenesis.org/humanlife Identical twin and embryo research Some have claimed that it is ethical to research embryos up to 14 days, because there is the possibility of forming identical twins. Therefore, they claim, it is illogical to regard an embryo as an individual if it could still become two people. Such claim are sometimes supported by claiming that a minority of Roman Catholic philosophers allegedly reason that a soul could not enter an embryo that still had the capacity to divide in two. But this is fallacious, for two reasons. First, we cannot decide scientifically how or when a soul enters an embryo. Second, the personhood of a 15-day embryo is established by the claimants' own admission. If it happens to divide into identical twins prior to that, then the personhood of the twins on day 15 in no way invalidates the personhood of the previously undivided embryo. It would simply be a form of asexual human reproduction.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:25 pm
Thanks for the info. It makes sense and it fits my personal opinion, but I did not know of much of the research (or if anyone had even bothered to look into it because it had the potential to undermine their moral basis for doing such research).
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:33 pm
That's really interesting! Was that article found online or in text? It's very informative and I had no idea that embryotic cells begin to determine what will be so soon after conception. Though I'm curious, how does this bit invalidate the idea that potential matters? I'm not really clear on that u.u; Quote: Some have claimed that it is ethical to research embryos up to 14 days, because there is the possibility of forming identical twins. Therefore, they claim, it is illogical to regard an embryo as an individual if it could still become two people. Such claim are sometimes supported by claiming that a minority of Roman Catholic philosophers allegedly reason that a soul could not enter an embryo that still had the capacity to divide in two. But this is fallacious, for two reasons. First, we cannot decide scientifically how or when a soul enters an embryo. Second, the personhood of a 15-day embryo is established by the claimants' own admission. If it happens to divide into identical twins prior to that, then the personhood of the twins on day 15 in no way invalidates the personhood of the previously undivided embryo. It would simply be a form of asexual human reproduction.It depends really on what one's beliefs are prior, really. If one believes that personhood/sacred-ness is granted upon the recieving of a soul (and many religious people will believe that a soul and God's grace are what differentiate humans from mere animals), then one may not consider an embryo prior to 15 days as a being with a soul/a person in a manner like this (this is a justification for the first paragraph in the quote): Given1 - We can determine that an embryo is able to split into twins, triplets, etc up until day 15. Given2 - We believe that each individual being has a soul (ie twins do not share a soul, they have their own individual soul). P1 - a soul is granted at conception (day 1), a common religious belief. P2 - an embryo splits into twins on day 6, then: We must conclude that the soul split into two and that the twins then share a soul based on P1 and P2. Since Catholics do not believe this (Given2), the soul could not have been granted on day 1 (that's what the first paragraph intends to assert). If one wanted to argue against this, the best argument I can think of is that one could assert a second soul was granted to one of the two embryos on day 6 when the first one split. The idea that personhood on day 15 implies personhood on day 1 is just faulty to me because there is a HUGE difference between day 1 and day 15 in the case of twins, namely that day one there is one person and day 15 there are two persons (or three, or four, etc). If one believes a soul determines personhood, and that every individual has his or her own unique soul, then one must can't just say that personhood on day 15 implies it on day 1 when there's the issue of new souls being added at different times. It's a really interesting issue. I wish I was better versed in catholic philosophy u.u;; It's been nearly 4 years since I've had any proper catholic schooling.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:49 pm
Person hood in law is faulty inits self becuase laws can change. Person hood in science is set in stone. Personhood in sceince is determined by whether the creature is human or not. Science shows us that the fetus fomr the moment of conception is human.
Also, since not every one has the same beliefe, the idea that a soul determines person hood become moot. We can not scietificly proove the soul exists, if oyu want to poot it that way.
The person hood we speek of is the definition of the word person.
EDIT: Cotholocism is not the end-all be-all decider on the soul, I really can't see itspoint in being in there other then as a possible pro-choice arguemtn that may come up
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:03 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle Person hood in law is faulty inits self becuase laws can change. Person hood in science is set in stone. Personhood in sceince is determined by whether the creature is human or not. Science shows us that the fetus fomr the moment of conception is human. Really? I don't mean to make it sound like I'm debating... but if you could provide a justification for being of the human species as a scientific determinant of personhood, it would be great for the current topic. I've never really heard a justification for why being "human" implied that one was granted personhood. Quote: Also, since not every one has the same beliefe, the idea that a soul determines person hood become moot. We can not scietificly proove the soul exists, if oyu want to poot it that way. The person hood we speek of is the definition of the word person. EDIT: Cotholocism is not the end-all be-all decider on the soul, I really can't see itspoint in being in there other then as a possible pro-choice arguemtn that may come up I agree ^_^;; I was just trying to explain where the person quoted was coming from with that particular belief. You're completely right that not everyone believes in the existence of the soul in the same way as a catholic would, but you must admit, for those who do, the issue of twins is a vexing one, no? I'm firmly of the belief that even if I don't believe in something there is always something to be gained by trying to argue from that P.O.V. or at least reason and rationalize that particular view.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:19 pm
Talon-chan Pyrotechnic Oracle Person hood in law is faulty inits self becuase laws can change. Person hood in science is set in stone. Personhood in sceince is determined by whether the creature is human or not. Science shows us that the fetus fomr the moment of conception is human. Really? I don't mean to make it sound like I'm debating... but if you could provide a justification for being of the human species as a scientific determinant of personhood, it would be great for the current topic. I've never really heard a justification for why being "human" implied that one was granted personhood. The dictionary definition of the word PERSON is simply "A human being" Now, under law, there are all sorts of thing required for one to be considered a person. WHich...I really find strange. Sentient thought...the ability to reproduce...those sorts of. If any of those things were true to grant perosn hood then that means a child under the age of three-four (as a generalisation) are not human since they are not really fully capable of sentient thought, nor capable of reproducing. The same goes for the senior. They are too old to reproduce. There is also the infertale And then their are then mentaly ill and the vegitables. They are comtpletly incapable of almost any thought (its is believed). And yet, no one denies that these are still people (Most do anyways...I fear the day when laws start changing that...) By science they are persons because they are human, by law they are not persons because they do not meet certain requirments...but so do certain born humans...and yet we still reguard them as persons. I hope thats not confusing.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:23 pm
I don't go by law what a person is but by dictionarys and biology. Laws don't make humans, biology does so laws shouldn't say what a person is or not.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:47 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle Talon-chan Pyrotechnic Oracle Person hood in law is faulty inits self becuase laws can change. Person hood in science is set in stone. Personhood in sceince is determined by whether the creature is human or not. Science shows us that the fetus fomr the moment of conception is human. Really? I don't mean to make it sound like I'm debating... but if you could provide a justification for being of the human species as a scientific determinant of personhood, it would be great for the current topic. I've never really heard a justification for why being "human" implied that one was granted personhood. The dictionary definition of the word PERSON is simply "A human being" Now, under law, there are all sorts of thing required for one to be considered a person. WHich...I really find strange. Sentient thought...the ability to reproduce...those sorts of. If any of those things were true to grant perosn hood then that means a child under the age of three-four (as a generalisation) are not human since they are not really fully capable of sentient thought, nor capable of reproducing. The same goes for the senior. They are too old to reproduce. There is also the infertale And then their are then mentaly ill and the vegitables. They are comtpletly incapable of almost any thought (its is believed). And yet, no one denies that these are still people (Most do anyways...I fear the day when laws start changing that...) By science they are persons because they are human, by law they are not persons because they do not meet certain requirments...but so do certain born humans...and yet we still reguard them as persons. I hope thats not confusing. The only confusing part is how you define "human" then. You say "they are persons because they are human" according to science, but according to science my hair is "human," my skin is biologically "human," my organs, my tissues, etc they are all biologically defined as being "human." Human is an adjective that describes something that can be identified as part of a particular species. Biologically speaking any part of me is human, and I am, as a whole, both human and a human being (or I would hope so XD). The question is, where does something being human (adjective) turn into being a human being (a noun)? My hair, my skin, and my organs are not a human being even though they are biologically and scientifically speaking "human." Again I don't want to debate, because I know that's against the rules and it would be really bad to debate on my first day here, ya know? But I guess that's the distinction I'm looking to understand, why being scientifically classified as human grants one the status of a human being. And if this is coming off as too debate-y, or you don't think it's appropriate just say so and I'll stop asking questions ^_^;; And sachiko, I agree. The law alone should not dictate what is and is not a human being deserving of rights, because obviously in the past the law has been wrong and blatantly arbitrary about such things (slavery for example).
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:22 pm
No, not debaty at all. Your asking a question and your giving evidencefor why you are askign it. The ansewer is in the cells, and not what the cells make up. As explaind above, research has now proven that the cells form almost immidietly upon conception. The cells that will later form your hair, skin, eyes, etc, are all there not exactly on, but almost immdietly after conception.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:36 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle No, not debaty at all. Your asking a question and your giving evidencefor why you are askign it. The ansewer is in the cells, and not what the cells make up. As explaind above, research has now proven that the cells form almost immidietly upon conception. The cells that will later form your hair, skin, eyes, etc, are all there not exactly on, but almost immdietly after conception. *nods* I think I understand the distinction now. And if you don't mind me asking questions I've got one or two more XD At conception (or at least soon afterwards) the cells that would make up each part of the body are able to be identified, whereas a true clump of skin is only skin and not the precursor of something else. That's what you're trying to say is the distinction between "human" and "a human being," right? But I still don't see how that negates all potential u.u;;; I mean the single cell that will become a kidney is still a single cell and not a kidney. It is on the path to becoming a kidney, and so in that way it is no longer just a truly potential kidney (like a truly blank embryonic cell would be), but doesn't it still fit the argument of potential? I mean... ok... to better explain it... Let's say you've got a single kidney cell that is not yet a full functional kidney, so it still needs time to become one. Doesn't the fact it still needs time to become a fully functional kidney mean it is only a potential fully functional kidney? E* Also do you mind if I put some of this stuff in one of the first posts?
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:06 pm
Well...the question i asked myself after reading that was this. "Is it fully relevent?" WHile asking my self this I said:
"Self?" "Yeah?" "I think its both relevent and irrelevent." "O.o how did you come up with that?" "Well, you see, its a kidney cell. The cells will continue to divide untill its a fully formed kidney and will start working. A reaosn why I see it as irrelevent. The reason why I also see it as relevent is because of the potential mutation that may prevent the kidney from formign right, or to keep it form forming entirly. If there is no apparent obsticle, then we must consider the product of it being a "potintialy fully functionle" kidney irrelevent since it is already goign to be a fully functionle kidney. If there was an apparent obsticle that had a chance to be qworked around, then I would consider it relevent."
Turns out, my self fell asleep in the middle of it all and didn't hear a damn thing stare ...b*****d
EDIT: If ity woudl help with the debate then by all means feel free touse it. You're apart of this conversition you have as much right to it as you feel.
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|