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 Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:31 am
Semiremis Quote: When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church. The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic.... Evidence to back up claims? If you read this, you should understand that at the time of the Counsel of Nicea the title Pope indicated the bishop of Rome. This was not a council to discuss Biblical Canon, but it set the president of political, and church inter-involvement.
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:43 am
Eltanin Sadachbia Semiremis Quote: When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church. The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic.... Evidence to back up claims? If you read this, you should understand that at the time of the Counsel of Nicea the title Pope indicated the bishop of Rome. This was not a council to discuss Biblical Canon, but it set the president of political, and church inter-involvement. Okay I read through the sources, all it says is that he called the bishops together. It doesn't say that he set up the religion. Also 1 Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible.
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:24 pm
rmcdra Eltanin Sadachbia Semiremis Quote: When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church. The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic.... Evidence to back up claims? If you read this, you should understand that at the time of the Counsel of Nicea the title Pope indicated the bishop of Rome. This was not a council to discuss Biblical Canon, but it set the president of political, and church inter-involvement. Okay I read through the sources, all it says is that he called the bishops together. It doesn't say that he set up the religion. Also 1 Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. I'm sorry. And yes I know that Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Bible, but the traditionally held and wide known Roman and European versions have excluded it, because there were passages that the fathers could not and did not wish to explain or acknowledge. I didn't mean to say that Constantine set the religion up. I did wish to demonstrate that a single political ruler had very much influence in the establishment of the "organized" version that has been handed down to us on a large-scale. Constantine did orchestrate the first Council of Nicaea with the Bishop (Pope) Sylvester, as the first attempt to organize a consensus on what should be taught and incorporated. This council was convened to address the issue of the Arian Christian sect, and to implore the leaders of that faction to conform to the consensus. They also established when and how the Pasch, or Resurrection Feast, later to be universally known as Easter, was to to be conducted. There were also several rules established regarding penance for those who buckled under the persecutions of Constantine's predecessors and rivals. The council of Nicaea was the first of many Ecumenical Councils that were instrumental in forming and shaping the majority of the Christian religion as it has been handed to us today. The Ethopian and Asiatic sects are more pure in many of their practices as they remained largely unmolested by the institutionalization of the RCC. Even the Protestant branches that are completely separate from the RCC still hold many of the traditions, rituals, and holidays that were set forth by the RCC. My main point that I wished to establish though, is that following the ritual of "going to" church, is not what was originally intended as a fellowship of believers. "Going to" church was a part of the way to get "organized", and now most people "Go to" church, but are not the Church as was the original point of fellowship. What truly get accomplished by going to church on a prescribed day of the week, sitting by one or two people who you are acquainted with for a couple of hours and then going home to enjoy an afternoon of TV, internet, and whatever? Most people don't even know the other people that go to church with them any other day of the week. When was the last time you helped a widow, orphan, or disabled person? How about your church congregation as a whole? Sending money is the easy non-sacraficial way, it doesn't take much for someone or a group of someones to say, "Oh, let me see what I can spare." The early church was about actually doing things, and that is what the Church body should be. What happens to a body when it does as little action as required? It get fat and atrophied. That is what I see in MOST churches nowadays. There are few who work tirelessly, but for as many church congregations there are now, it is only a small percentage who are Active Bodies. So, if you really want to make going to church meaningful, then my suggestion is to find a place that gives Church meaning. If you can't find a congregation that you feel to share your beliefs, then start finding a fellowship of friends that share your Faith, and do meaningful things for people who you can help. That was the Spirit in which the beginnings of Christianity are founded.
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:21 pm
Semiremis divineseraph rmcdra divineseraph Is going to church really important? Yes because a Church is a body of believers coming together for fellowship, reflection, and learning. It may seem weak but that is actually part of the core since each believer makes up the Body of Christ and by coming together as one, Christ becomes present. That's the ideal anyway. There is scriptural support for this as Semiremis pointed out. The person ministering is supposed to be knowledgeable about the scripture and giving the meaning of the scripture in the Christian context. Though in my experience this is often rare. Quote: Is the ritual a vital part of knowing God? Personally I would say yes because the rituals are designed in such a way for the believer to experience God. In the Eastern Orthodoxy, the sacraments are referred to as the Mysteries because it is through performing these actions that an understanding of God is fostered. Quote: Is God truly represented through the interpretations of man? Depends if the person giving the interpretations has theoria or not. If the person teaching does not know of God then how can they adequately teach about God to others? Quote: And from a christian perspective, how can I word this so that my parents finally understand where I'm coming from? You could tell them that God is calling you to be elsewhere and it would better serve the Church for you to be where God wants you to be. Or this one is kinda insulting but fits with your situation, you don't feel the Holy Spirit at the Church your parents are wanting you to attend. There is little learning done in church. You can not learn when ritual ties you down. What gets me is the pointless ritual that nobody understands anymore- You chant the chants, stand and sit, eat the bread- But what does it mean? I know that you can find an answer very quickly online, or you may actually know where the ritual comes from. But religion is not supposed to be about the ritual, it's about the connection. And the connection is found as far away from robotic ritual as possible. This was not Jesus' original intent. How is this? I find no understanding of God by eating the eucharist or chanting the chants- In fact, I feel it devalues the whole reason of being there- Understanding God. I think of it this way- Connection with God is supposed to be on a personal level, through reverberation of the soul. How are we supposed to transform our soul when it is stuck in rituals that have become so far from the original that it's hard to even know what most of them mean? How can you find the truth when you're only allowed to observe through a keyhole? Exactly. That's not really true, though. God isn't calling me anywhere. I just don't see God in church. And it's so bad, I doubt they could tell you what Holy Spirit means. I'd bet they know it's something to do with God, but that's about it. There may be little learning done in church for you, but it may be a place of gathering, of amassing and sharing knowledge for others. Ritual may tie you down, but it may be enriching and freeing to others. The rituals may be pointless to you but they may contain a plethora of meaning and value to those who understand them. Ritual may seem robotic to you, but they may seem full of life to those who actively take part in them. Your version of things certainly was not what God intended but your version isn't the same version experienced by an active and devout catholic. Sharing knowledge? When was the last time anyone but the priest was allowed to say much of anything, aside from weekly announcements? How? How is a rigid structure of worship that crushes free thought supposed to be freeing? And who knows what they mean? Why do you break bread? Why do you light incense? Church today is the result of two thousand years of the "Telephone" game. The phrase "Get together for a meal and discuss God" has turned into "Get together for a wafer and chant the same phrases multiple times." You can see the corruption quite easily, if you try, or at least the evolution. And what, then, did God intend? That we all follow the neat little man-made rules and status quo?
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:36 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia rmcdra Eltanin Sadachbia Semiremis Quote: When the Romans, particularly Constantine recognized Christianity as a religion, the wheels were set in motion to get the whole thing "organized". Constantine incorporated many of the traditions of the sect of Mithras, as he was convinced that, Mithras and the God of the Christians were the same. He set up the first counsels to set a specific cannon. Constantine provided the way for the church to become institutionalized, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church. The Early RCC began to prohibit any writting that they could not agree on, even scriptures that Jesus Himself quoted from. One of the most notable and sad exclusions that was made was the book of Enoch... anyway, that's getting off-topic.... Evidence to back up claims? If you read this, you should understand that at the time of the Counsel of Nicea the title Pope indicated the bishop of Rome. This was not a council to discuss Biblical Canon, but it set the president of political, and church inter-involvement. Okay I read through the sources, all it says is that he called the bishops together. It doesn't say that he set up the religion. Also 1 Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. I'm sorry. And yes I know that Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Bible, but the traditionally held and wide known Roman and European versions have excluded it, because there were passages that the fathers could not and did not wish to explain or acknowledge. I didn't mean to say that Constantine set the religion up. I did wish to demonstrate that a single political ruler had very much influence in the establishment of the "organized" version that has been handed down to us on a large-scale. Constantine did orchestrate the first Council of Nicaea with the Bishop (Pope) Sylvester, as the first attempt to organize a consensus on what should be taught and incorporated. This council was convened to address the issue of the Arian Christian sect, and to implore the leaders of that faction to conform to the consensus. They also established when and how the Pasch, or Resurrection Feast, later to be universally known as Easter, was to to be conducted. There were also several rules established regarding penance for those who buckled under the persecutions of Constantine's predecessors and rivals. The council of Nicaea was the first of many Ecumenical Councils that were instrumental in forming and shaping the majority of the Christian religion as it has been handed to us today. The Ethopian and Asiatic sects are more pure in many of their practices as they remained largely unmolested by the institutionalization of the RCC. Even the Protestant branches that are completely separate from the RCC still hold many of the traditions, rituals, and holidays that were set forth by the RCC. My main point that I wished to establish though, is that following the ritual of "going to" church, is not what was originally intended as a fellowship of believers. "Going to" church was a part of the way to get "organized", and now most people "Go to" church, but are not the Church as was the original point of fellowship. What truly get accomplished by going to church on a prescribed day of the week, sitting by one or two people who you are acquainted with for a couple of hours and then going home to enjoy an afternoon of TV, internet, and whatever? Most people don't even know the other people that go to church with them any other day of the week. When was the last time you helped a widow, orphan, or disabled person? How about your church congregation as a whole? Sending money is the easy non-sacraficial way, it doesn't take much for someone or a group of someones to say, "Oh, let me see what I can spare." The early church was about actually doing things, and that is what the Church body should be. What happens to a body when it does as little action as required? It get fat and atrophied. That is what I see in MOST churches nowadays. There are few who work tirelessly, but for as many church congregations there are now, it is only a small percentage who are Active Bodies. So, if you really want to make going to church meaningful, then my suggestion is to find a place that gives Church meaning. If you can't find a congregation that you feel to share your beliefs, then start finding a fellowship of friends that share your Faith, and do meaningful things for people who you can help. That was the Spirit in which the beginnings of Christianity are founded. What you're saying reminds me of a speech I wanted to give, namely by walking into an active church service and simply going at it. Jesus style, if you will. "Why are you all here? You are all Christians, correct? You are all here because of one man, Christ. Christ had an idea- That goodness is purely objective, and is not related to the time or the culture. Jesus was willing to die in order to do no wrong. He was willing to give up his very life to make the world a better place. He would not stop his message of change for the sake of the law of the time, and he continued working and helping the unfortunate until he was sentenced to death. Do you know what the word Christian means? It means Follower of Christ. I say that a follower of Christ, to truly do justice to Christ, must emulate and BECOME Christ, and live as he lived. This one man changed the world for over two thousand years. A single pure soul. Imagine the power of his followers, should they follow in his footsteps- There are about two billion Christians on earth. Imagine the power of two christs- The power of five, ten, one hundred or even every single one of those two billion "followers". If one man changed the world this much, imagine what we can all do together. I do not know if Christ is truly the only way to Heaven, and I personally hope not. However, I am certain of one thing about Christ- His purpose for us was not this- Not the ritual and the prayer and the hope that the higher power will bend it's knees to solve our problems, but to guide us all to being like him, so we can change the world ourselves."
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:48 pm
divineseraph What you're saying reminds me of a speech I wanted to give, namely by walking into an active church service and simply going at it. Jesus style, if you will. "Why are you all here? You are all Christians, correct? You are all here because of one man, Christ. Christ had an idea- That goodness is purely objective, and is not related to the time or the culture. Jesus was willing to die in order to do no wrong. He was willing to give up his very life to make the world a better place. He would not stop his message of change for the sake of the law of the time, and he continued working and helping the unfortunate until he was sentenced to death. Do you know what the word Christian means? It means Follower of Christ. I say that a follower of Christ, to truly do justice to Christ, must emulate and BECOME Christ, and live as he lived. This one man changed the world for over two thousand years. A single pure soul. Imagine the power of his followers, should they follow in his footsteps- There are about two billion Christians on earth. Imagine the power of two christs- The power of five, ten, one hundred or even every single one of those two billion "followers". If one man changed the world this much, imagine what we can all do together. I do not know if Christ is truly the only way to Heaven, and I personally hope not. However, I am certain of one thing about Christ- His purpose for us was not this- Not the ritual and the prayer and the hope that the higher power will bend it's knees to solve our problems, but to guide us all to being like him, so we can change the world ourselves." I didn't go in front of a full congregation and say this, but I did approach my pastor. I am tired of an inert church. I do everything I can to help anyone that I see needs something, and I know that with as many people as I have helped, a large group of people could do even more. My pastor agreed with every word that I said, and I asked him why the churches in our area weren't doing more, and he said they couldn't agree. mad I ask why we weren't and he didn't really have an answer. So... I told him that I was better off with my pagan, heathen, and sinner friends; at least they were caring of those less fortunate, and not reigned in by ritual, and needing to conform to their peers. Recently, I have felt lead to get people together and experience REAL fellowship, and some truly amazing things happen. Everyone has a say, and all are encouraged to question. We have an open worship, where everyone request songs they want to sing or hear, and those of us with instruments play, while everyone sings. There is no time constraints. Not everything is all spiritual, but we definitely all unite at some point for the Spirit to take over. If people want prayer, we pray for them. We normally have a meal, and we help with things that need to be done. It is refreshing and all of us agree that we feel more of the Spirit in that atmosphere. I am convinced this is more like what Jesus did when he went about the countryside, or like what Paul did with on his travels. I have recently started attending my church again, and many of the people have come and gone. The whole town has traded congregation members over the past few years, and every Christian in the area is getting restless. I invited some of the people at my church to come out and fellowship with our small group of individuals. Hopefully, those who come will have an open mind. I honestly want to get back to our spiritual roots, I want us to experience what the early Christians felt. I want to be proud of our religion as a whole. I want to have a part in turning the negative stereotypes, into pleasant surprise. I am not blind to the issues that are rampant in the organization, but I also have had a realization of what was intended, and the potential that the Church can realize.
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:24 am
Semiremis "They fall back on the reasoning that church gives them a sense of community, where everyone comes together, and that it gives them time to reflect. To me, this seems like a very weak reason to join a religious organization."That seems like an extremely good reason to me to join a religious organization. Humans are social animals and as much as many people would like to deny it, as a general rule of thumb we do not do too well alone in comparison to how we do together. It's not the only reason to join a church community in my opinion though. If you don't believe then you don't believe. As far as going to church goes I think that as a Christian it's very important to attend mass (Catholic Christian that is). It's important for that sense of solidarity, for sharing your faith in Christ, for coming together in that truth and continually enriching your life with it. EDIT: (just throwing this out there) Hebrews 10:19-25 19 Therefore, brothers, [3] since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. i agree. belief may be personal, but church is about community. shop around, you should be able to find a congenial group, who can provide stimulating discussion, and also help hold you true to your convictions. if not, maybe you are too proud and stubborn.
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