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ArcNeoMasato

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:17 am


My final words: You all get the classic anime style really well, don't get my wrong, but anime is evolving. I went and found several pictures drawn by published artists doing the exact same thing with the crotch that I did, and no one says a word about it.

Frankly, adhering to that centerline rule is one of the reasons so many people don't like anime, because it has become more about a system than actual art. Many people in my family hate anime with a passion, but they like my stuff because I think outside the anime box.

I'm not saying you're all wrong, but I am saying you need to be more open, cause this place is really only good from those looking for the generic anime style, not something unique.

And frankly, I don't care how many artistic references have the centerline at the crotch, the simple fact is, very few people in real life actually do. Of the hundreds of people at my church, there is one person who does.

This place is just too stiff. You go on about "Find your own way" and "Listen to your heart" but when someone does it there's a million and one reasons why they're wrong.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:28 pm


I think the hand looks great, and so do the details on the pants. I'd personally have the seam go along the shape of the leg, though.
A useful tip I learned from one of Kupocake's posts:
Quote:
No matter what style you're working under, the bottom of the pelvic bone (or crotch. Your choice of words.) will be the halfway point of the body.

I think it's too late to change that here, but it's a useful thing to keep in mind, though I think more cartoony styles are an exception (such as One Piece or... cartoons). The upper half of your picture just looks a bit bigger than the lower half.

Anyhow, I'm noticing improvements (other than what I specifically mentioned).

Zantetsken


Zantetsken

PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:59 pm


I could be wrong in my assumptions... like, maybe her jeans are being worn lower and her crotch isn't where I thought it might be... Anyhow, here's how things look to me:
User Image

And I get the same problem with hair sometimes, haha. Everything seems like it's ready to go, then some poofy hair makes the head look real big... yet I see it pulled off well so many times...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:10 pm


Honestly, I think Zantetsken is right on the money for this one. Even by going with the her right leg-argument, she still doesn't have the right proportions. The proportion measurement ends at the bottom of the sole, not the tip of the toe. Imagine her foot foreshortened toward the viewer. With that in mind, her torso is undoubtedly too long.

I say "crotch" because it's easier to remember, rather than "bottom of the pelvic bone." Not everybody knows the ins-and-outs of anatomy, especially skeletal anatomy (hell, I'm still trying to figure it out). The "crotch" proportion-rule applies to most normal body shapes, so I sling that around more instead. The difference, especially at that scale, is barely readable anyway.

Personally, I feel that her left leg is perfectly straight. The little variances in her pants makes it feel like she has muscle, which is quite nice and gives it a good rhythm. Because her right foot isn't firmly cemented on the ground, her left leg is definitely the support leg in this picture. With that in mind, her hips should be slanted the other direction, "/" instead of the other way.

Try it yourself, the leg that you're putting all your weight on is the one that raises up your hip at an angle.

Kupocake
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:39 am


I don't personally own "Anatomy for the Artist" by Carter and Courtney, but I do own several other artistic anatomy books, including "Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist" by Peck and "Dynamic Anatomy" by Hogarth. All of them agree with each other: the midway point for any human being is around the crotch area, of the bottom of the pelvic bone. Not to mention my last 3 art instructors all claim the same proportion rule as well.

Diagrams also clearly label that the "end point" for this measurement is the bottom of the sole, not the tip of the toe. There are huge miscalculations involved if one uses the tip of the toe-measurement instead.

It's not about making anybody happy, it's about making you a better artist.

Also, you're free to choose which suggestions to listen to, anyway. Nobody has an iron fist over what you're supposed to draw. And remember, we're all human, we all make mistakes and we don't always agree with each other. Do good research, don't just pull all your information from one resource. When you find the general consensus on something, follow it.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:36 pm


Just don't put all your eggs in one basket. Different artists have different ways of approaching things, I'm merely telling you what I've learned as an artist, from books and from professors.

Hell, my professors had different ideas of how to approach drawing the human body. Simple shapes versus race to the finish line? "Feeling" of the pose versus cold-calculated accuracy?

If you think something is wrong with any given piece of critique, challenge it. Look up several books or ask other artists. If someone tells you "the legs look wrong," ask other people, "do these legs look off to you?" And don't just ask your buddies on your favorite website, expand to other websites, like ConceptArt.org or even the Picture Post here on Gaia. The more opinions you have on your art, the more well-rounded your feedback will be.

I've measured myself and many, many models. Yes, there are variances, and not everyone's midpoint is smack at the crotch, but the variable difference is barely enough for mention.

Your character's legs need to be longer by almost an entire head-length. She looks to be around 6-6.5 heads tall, just eyeballing it. That means her midway point on your drawing is almost at her belly-button, which is way off.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:24 pm


For anime style, her crotch should be her mid point. If you are doing a more stylized look, which it seems you might be developing, them there is a little leeway. But I do agree her legs seem a little too short for a person of normal proportions in any style...I still have this problem myself quite often with my own works.

Just keep practicing, and don't take any crits too seriously, art is no fun if you obsess to much over perfection. Besides, it will come with practice.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:57 pm


Wooh, I got a Blue Gift Box by posting here.
Looks like quite a bit of discussion occurred...

Phydeux77
Well you're close on your redline thine, but off just where it matters. The leg to go by is her right one, Viewer's left, that;s straightened out. Due to the 3/4 view, the other leg is a tad shortened, but when you measure the other leg, everything falls into place, her head to crotch length is exactly the same as he crotch to heel length.I'll sketch it out and edit this post to show it. One sec.



Edit: http://g-man777.deviantart.com/art/Marriko-Breakdown-157724478

From what the book says, it's not the actual pants crotch that hits in the middle (The gap between the legs) but the joint where the thigh meets the pelvis, which is a little above.



A big problem may be that I'm not really drawing with stylized proportions, but straight text book anatomy, which is actually different that you would expect, which is why I'm going to learn stylized proportions, I get sick of having to explain the book I use to everyone. Not meaning this mean, but I always have someone saying "Use a reference" and I'm always like: "I did!!!! It said do what I just did!!!!!!"

I will admit the foreshortening gone gawdafulwrong here on the western foot though. I need to tweak her shoes so they have a little more reference as to there angle.

I certainly didn't consider that the leg on our right could be appear shorter due to it being more towards the background. Now I'm not even sure about that one...

I think the colouring on the hair is a bit too "flat" (?)... I see that you have finer strands of hair visible there rather than making it all one solid colour. Perhaps those could be coming from/going to the uh... I forgot what it's called... the spot on the back of the head where the hair centers about. The strands are currently looking pretty vertical; curving them towards that spot could help. I would also shade the hair to give it more depth (with that darker colour you used on the hair behind her), even if it would make some of those strands not noticeable.
I'm not sure how to comment on the sweater's colouring... something about it looks nice, but something about it seems off... but I can't put my finger on it. Same for the pants...
The skin could use some shading.

Anyhow, back to the matters at hand... You're entirely free to do as you please, and I don't mean that in a "Hmph! I give up, do whatever you want" sort of way. I notice some topics around here only get one comment if they're lucky, and it can be hard to improve if you can't get critique from other artists or whatever.

Anyhow, these are the sorts of proportions I try to use. 3D meat model is copyright www.posemaniacs.com
User Image
His neck seems to be stretched out here, so it's a little off. I drew a blue head shape/face where I think it would normally be. On to my methods (these are just my observations and things I've collected from others and might not hold true in all cases or be accurate at all):
-The pecks end around the half point of the upper arm
-The elbow reaches around the thinnest part of the waist
-The wrist reaches to around the bottom of the crotch
-The extended fingers reach to around the middle of the thigh

In your Marriko breakdown, the wrists aren't reaching as far as I'd like. If you put them there, then the hands would reach down too low... unless the legs were longer, then it would work out.

I'm a bit unclear on the intended pose with the leg to our left. Coincidentally, I think it's the same problem I had when I drew this: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/cloudflashgaia/daily_gaia/daily21.jpg
... That being that it just doesn't seem to naturally fit in. Anyhow, the way you have her foot, it appears to be in front of her body, not behind it. However, its perceived size is more like it's behind her body. I dunno, I don't think I'm entirely making sense anymore...
User Image
On the figure to the left, the heel on the foot to our left is higher than the other heel. However, this leg is closer to us and we should see it as being more "in front of" her, so this isn't making sense.
In the second figure, I made her legs a bit longer again, but this time I made sure the leg to our left is appearing more like how it should. Then I just drew a box around it and copy+pasted it to show that it's consistent with that "crotch-midpoint" guideline... I'm not sure if that should be based on the rear leg or not, though, in which case the legs would be a bit longer than this.

Maybe her neck could be shorter if she's meant to be a shorter person.

Phydeux77
All I know is I'm doing what the book said, so if it's wrong, tell the person that wrote the book. In all honesty, things like this are where I toy with dropping art entirely, because I can never make anyone happy.

I know it can be a bit frustrating, especially when people just say it looks weird without saying anything about how to fix it. Even if they do, you might not be too happy about someone saying your latest piece is a failure... I know I sure wasn't when I drew and coloured a character on poster sized paper when I was in grade 12. My friend said the arms looked too short, and he was absolutely right, but it took a few weeks before I was ready to admit it and continue to improve. Not that I'm trying to say "Geez, this guy's just being stubborn". Sometimes it's just harder to believe something until you come to that conclusion yourself.

Anyhow, if you feel like quitting art, try to remember why you started and why you continue.
I started doodling 'cause I found it fun, then I had some short-lived dream of possibly becoming an animator or something, and I'd come up with really crappy stories. I draw today for various reasons, and sometimes I find myself drawing something very unnatural to me, and it's not fun and I hate the outcome. No matter what kind of art or design you're doing, I think it's important to remember that you enjoy it and that you express your soul. What is it that you want to show to the world? Whatever it is, no matter what style, you have to draw it well enough to convey your message.

Phydeux77
And I think I understand you, but it just drives me nuts, cause I have several people saying her anatomy is off, and several others saying it's fine, and I don't know who to listen to.

I can't help but use the cheesy line "listen to your heart". Use reference pictures and such when you can to see if things match up right...
Well, I personally don't like doing that, and art isn't natural enough for me to be able to draw a nice picture out of nowhere. What I do is try to memorize as many little tips about body proportions as I can... Not the extremely general stuff like "the human head fits into the body 6-8 times"... that might set you up for the right height, but it doesn't help tell you where the elbows, knees, belly button, etc. should be.
Anyhow, here's a list of tips I've gathered or come up with (pictures and better organization to come some day): http://cloudflash.net/arttips.php
I find that's easier, anyways, and using various limbs to measure various other limbs can help keep things in check when they're webbed together.

Using these tips, asking others, finding your own answers... whatever you do, good luck.

Zantetsken


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:32 am


Well, reading your new first post, I'm going to lock this thread to prevent any further discussion and drama. Sorry to see you go.
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