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 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:00 pm
For those of you who might not know, a nominative is basically making a non-noun into a noun.
For example in the sentence:
[EDIT] gaikoku-go wo manabu no wa, muzukashii desu ne. (Foreign languages are difficult to learn, arent they?)
Why cant you just say:
gaikoku wo manabu wa muzukashii desu ne.
Studying from my grammar book, no wa, no ga play a role in nominalization. What exactly are no wa and no ga?
PS: if you type in Japanese, please type in Romaji. Im having a difficult time installing Japanese font.
Thanks
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:31 am
Well, I have no experience in japanese, but I think I might be able to make some comments:
Actually, the nominative case is used to indicate that the noun in question is the subject of the sentence. When you turn something into a noun, it's called nominalization.
Also, a quick study showed that the actual translation is more along the lines of: The study of foreign countries is difficult, isn't it? However, manabu is the verb "to study". In order to make it a noun "the study", you have to add the "no" particle - The wa/ga is simply there because it indicates that the noun is the topic of the sentence.
As to the other question, why they use it? Well, english also uses it to some extent: when you are referring to the noun, you say "the failure", not "the fail". Besides, languages aren't logical, and all of them have irregularities or simply stuff that doesn't make sense for a non-native speaker. Why English puts the verb "to do" at the start of a yes/no question?
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:39 am
Let me see if I understand,
Basically, the verb manabu is being made into a noun by nominalization.
the wa/ga is there to indicate that the word is the subject (topic) of the sentence?
Grammar confuses me sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:00 am
I really don't know about all this nominalization in my class this was called the gerund form. What I do know is that by adding no to the end of the plain form of a verb it is making it the ing form. For example manabu means to learn whereas manabuno means learning.
If I were to translate this it would be: Learning foriegn languages is difficult isn't it.
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:58 am
Weiss Kitsune I really don't know about all this nominalization in my class this was called the gerund form. What I do know is that by adding no to the end of the plain form of a verb it is making it the ing form. For example manabu means to learn whereas manabuno means learning. If I were to translate this it would be: Learning foriegn languages is difficult isn't it. okay, I can understand that but then what would the "wa" after "no" mean. As in manabu no wa? It is starting to make sense but it doesnt make sense at the same time. But would ~ing in Japanese be ~teiru like tabeteiru (eatING), nondeiru (drinkING), manabunde (learnING). So taberu would be taberuno? Another thing is for example as in saying "Nani o taberu no [ka]". To me, it is asking a question but it is really short and casual instead of saying nani wo tabemasu ka? Im just having a tough time trying to make sense of no wa. I think I can use it but I still get confused a long the way. EDIT: I think I know what you mean by adding no at the end of the plain from verb. So like, nani wo manabu no..[what are you learning?]
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Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:54 pm
The problem is, the english "-ing" is used for many, many different things, which are expressed in different ways in other languages. In other words, you can see that the word "learning" has different meanings in different contexts for example: "learning foreign languages is difficult" versus "I'm learning foreign languages". In the first example, "learning" refers to the act of learning, while the second says that someone (in this case, me) is doing the action. They are represented differently in Japanese (and in many other languages). The particle wa, as far as I know, indicates what the sentence is about, what is it's topic; in most (but not all) situations you could assume it's like a subject, I think. Also, the particle "no" has quite a few functions in Japanese; the best thing to do would be to ask a native speaker, or at least, someone who is fluent in Japanese. After all, language doesn't quite work like the grammarbooks say, and even when it does, we risk ourselves getting it wrong if we study it by ourselves, with no external aid.
(Also, if you find Japanese odd, keep in mind that English is a very, very, veeery odd language. Many people around the world have constant headaches trying to understand how does it make sense; I know I had some not that much time ago 3nodding )
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:21 am
Thank you for explaining that Sano Parmandil. I wasn't sure I could explain that well.
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Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:59 am
My teacher gave us the Japanese example when we were talking about rheme and theme (topic / comment).
One of them states the given, while the other, the new, she has given us this example:
mukaši mukaši, ojii-san-ga (new / comment) sunde imašita. Ojii-san-wa (given / topic) totemo šinsetsu dešita.
I don't remember any Japanese so I can't stand behind this, but I hope I can count on what she says so...
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:42 pm
You could say "Gengo wo narau no wa muzukashii ki ga suru."
"I have a hunch that learning languages are difficult."
The 「のno」 particle in this usage essentially replaces the noun and takes over the role as a noun itself. We can essentially treat adjectives and verbs just like nouns by adding the 「の」 particle to it. The particle then becomes a generic noun, which we can treat just like a regular noun.
（１） 白いのは、かわいい (Shiroi no wa, kawaii)。- Thing that is white is cute.
（２） 授業に行くのを忘れた。(Juugyo ni iku no wo wasureta)- Forgot the event of going to class.
Now we can use the direct object, topic, and identifier particle with verbs and adjectives. We don't necessarily have to use the 「のno」 particle here. We can use the noun 「物mono」, which is a generic object or 「ことkoto」 for a generic event. For example, we can also say:
（１） 白い物は、かわいい。- Thing that is white is cute. (Shiroi mono wa kawaii)
（２） 授業に行くことを忘れた。- Forgot the thing of going to class. (juugyo ni iku koto wo wasureta)
However, the 「のno」 particle is very useful in that you don't have to specify a particular noun. In the next examples, the 「のno」 particle is not replacing any particular noun, it just allows us to modify verb and adjective clauses like noun clauses. The subordinate clauses are highlighted.
（１） 毎日勉強するのは大変。Mainichi benkyou suru no wa taihen - The thing of studying every day is tough.
（２） 毎日同じ物を食べるのは、面白くない。mainichi onaji mono wo taberu no wa, omoshirokunai- It's not interesting to eat same thing every day.
You might have noticed that the word 「同じonaji」 is directly modifying 「物mono」 even though it obviously isn't an i-adjective. I have no idea why this is possible. One explanation might be that it is actually an adverb, which we will soon learn doesn't require any particles.
Otherwise, even when substituting 「のno」 for a noun, you still need the 「なna」 to modify the noun when a na-adjective is being used.
（１） 静かな部屋が、アリスの部屋だ。Shizukana heya ga arisu no heya da- Quiet room is room of Alice.
becomes:
（１） 静かなのが、アリスの部屋だ。Shizuka no ga, arisu no heya da.- Quiet one is room of Alice.
*Warning: This may make things seem like you can replace any arbitrary nouns with 「のno」 but this is not so. It is important to realize that the sentence must be about the clause and not the noun that was replaced. For example, in the last section we had the sentence, 「学生じゃない人は、 学校に行かないgakusei janai hito wa, gakkou ni ikanai」. You may think that you can just replace 「人hito」 with 「のno」 to produce 「学生じゃないのは、学校に行かないgakusei janai no wa, gakkou ni ikanai」. But in fact, this makes no sense because the sentence is now about the clause "Is not student". The sentence becomes, "The thing of not being student does not go to school" which is complete gibberish because not being a student is a state and it doesn't make sense for a state to go anywhere much less school.
Gengo is an alternate word for Gaikokugo
Narau means to learn while manabu means to study in depth
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