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 Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:09 pm
If someone/thing were to create an entity via belief, and one of the things that they believed about that critter was that it existed in the past, always existed, existed long ago, will not exist for ages... basically something ******** with the idea of "reach critical mass now, it is created now", how would that be likely to work out?
How about if the belief screwed with other things like the basic laws (or lack of) of the universe, or the laws of physics?
How might this differ if it was created unintentionally or unknowingly?
Also, just how would multiple gods (or hell, I guess this could apply to mages) go about being a "Source" for a critter-or-person-or-group-or-species? Obviously there's the When A Mommy God And A Daddy God Love Each Other Very Much method, thigh-implantation, whatever the hell else the Greeks and Romans and Egyptians came up with, but what if there's more than two gods/whatever involved? What if (for whatever reason) sex or sex-metaphor is innapropriate for the pantheon's paradigm? What if it's between different pantheons?
This is presuming, of course, that all critters involved are "Sources" in the sense of all of 'em being part of the firmament or whatever the hell it is Source does. I'm borrowing one of Ges' words again and I don't know if it means what I think it means, but uhm, basically they're active participants. whee
Is this even an answerable question other than going up to them and asking "so, uhm, hi, dumb question again..."?
These actually aren't related, though I'm sure once I say that something will try to prove me wrong in some way. razz
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:03 pm
Blah, my terminology sucks so try not to mock me too terribly from falling back on what I know best; comics. Let me see if I can reiterate your question in a way that makes sense to me.
In comics, there's a concept called retroactive continuity or retcon for short. A retcon is when a previous part of the published history of a character or of certain events are changed retroactively so that in the contemporary fictional world, events always happened the way that they were recently modified to, despite being contradicted by older published material.
A more practical example would be a comic involving an analysis of the powers of Wanda Maximoff, The Scarlet Witch. She was placed under observation by Iron Man and Captain America who video taped her launching a "hex bolt" at a steel beam and causing it to break. When they observed her do it, the steel beam was intact before the hex bolt hit it and was broken afterwards. However, when they reviewed the tape, it showed that the beam was cracked before the hex bolt hit it. It retroactively altered the physical makeup of the target.
So then what you're asking about is the possibility that man created God and that by creating God, man was retroactively created by God, nullifying whatever happened to create the Universe and man previous to the creation of God. Interestingly enough, it's been an idea that I've been fleshing out for a story that I've been working on but not one that I've really meditated on extensively or considered as a paradigm. It's a delicious idea though and just think for a minute on what that would say about the potential of the magical will of the human species as a whole, that we could unconsiously create a creator.
As for the simultaenous existence of paradigms or pantheons, an idea that's used extensively in fantasy literature is the Small God Theory, the idea that there's some kind of species of ethereal creatures that feed off belief and gain power from it. Amusingly enough, before she found Jesus, Anne Rice used that theory to account for the origin of vampires as well as Christianity. Neil Gaiman aludes to the idea in The Sandman, but the most comprehensive and thought provoking apporach to it that I've read would be Terry Pratchet's Small Gods.
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:34 pm
Grant Morrison Blah, my terminology sucks so try not to mock me too terribly from falling back on what I know best; comics. Let me see if I can reiterate your question in a way that makes sense to me. You're speaking to another comics geek, and one who compares apocalypse-legend-theories to a universe reboot. No mocking here. ;3 Retconning is a wonderful way of thinking about it, hehe. Quote: So then what you're asking about is the possibility that man created God and that by creating God, man was retroactively created by God, nullifying whatever happened to create the Universe and man previous to the creation of God. Interestingly enough, it's been an idea that I've been fleshing out for a story that I've been working on but not one that I've really meditated on extensively or considered as a paradigm. It's a delicious idea though and just think for a minute on what that would say about the potential of the magical will of the human species as a whole, that we could unconsiously create a creator. I was mostly thinking about other critters or non-deific entities. Mythic critters, for one. *shines halo and coughs* Quote: As for the simultaenous existence of paradigms or pantheons, an idea that's used extensively in fantasy literature is the Small God Theory, the idea that there's some kind of species of ethereal creatures that feed off belief and gain power from it. Amusingly enough, before she found Jesus, Anne Rice used that theory to account for the origin of vampires as well as Christianity. Neil Gaiman aludes to the idea in The Sandman, but the most comprehensive and thought provoking apporach to it that I've read would be Terry Pratchet's Small Gods. Ah, yes, my old nemesis. Good book, decent theory, irritating the way some people take it. Eh. I don't like the idea that some great and powerful hoo-hah actually needs silly little critters to believe in it to survive; it seems arrogant. Still kinda cool, it's like those egregore things. But nah, the simultaneous *existence* I am treating as a given for the question. I mean, what if critters from different pantheons decided to work together in creating peoplesouls (or angelfollowers or whatever).
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:35 pm
Greenling You're speaking to another comics geek, and one who compares apocalypse-legend-theories to a universe reboot. No mocking here. ;3 Retconning is a wonderful way of thinking about it, hehe. Quote: I was mostly thinking about other critters or non-deific entities. Mythic critters, for one. *shines halo and coughs*
Okay, to further embarass myself I'm going to reach into anime for an analogue. I dunno if you've seen Bleach, but basically it's a system of metagenic magic that uses life force, chi, whatever you want to call it and the main character has shitloads of it, it's always leaking out of him because he isn't consiously regulating or using it fast enough. But what if we all had some measure of life force, that it's all equal just for simplicity's sake, and that it doesn't just bleed off if we don't use it, but it goes towards opening magical pathways to certain phenomena like a sigil does?
It would mean that consentual reality isn't consentual at all but an unconsious tyranny of the majority, and that any single or small group of magicians seeking to make magical pathways to phenomena or events that go against the prevailing consentual reality would, despite their more focused desire, be swimming upstream in a very strong current due to sheer weight of numbers. The key to affecting fundamental or remarkable changes in consentual reality would thus require the magician to collaborate with peers and potentially recruit and train more magicians in a reverse Marxist revolution, a struggle for the means of magical production, our very bodies and minds. I think I've deviated into a major tangent. sweatdrop Quote: Ah, yes, my old nemesis. Good book, decent theory, irritating the way some people take it. Eh. I don't like the idea that some great and powerful hoo-hah actually needs silly little critters to believe in it to survive; it seems arrogant. Still kinda cool, it's like those egregore things.
The idea of man creating God does seem arrogant at first blush, and probably at the second or third as well, but it's all a matter of perspective. One of the big things about Chaos Magic is learning to break down our limitations, and what bigger limitation is there than having a creator, or conversely what is more empowering than knowing that we have the potential in us to create gods? Gods can elevate us, they can give us power, wealth, opportunity, and many things that we couldn't get without them, but that becomes superfluous if the slave created the master. Then existence becomes a cosmic game of S&M where the safeword unlocks the full potential of the individual. Craziness.Quote: But nah, the simultaneous *existence* I am treating as a given for the question. I mean, what if critters from different pantheons decided to work together in creating peoplesouls (or angelfollowers or whatever).
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