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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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 Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:51 pm
I read this article a few weeks ago and have been rolling it around my head since then. It touches on the hows and whys of Pagan groups and why they are/go defunct, as well as why a lot of Pagan "communities" are more of a scene than a community (which I am in agreement with). I mean, I see a few of my guilds as communities, but things like PPDs or open circle celebrations...are scenes to me. Any thoughts? Complaints?
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:46 am
I agree with the fact that those sorts of open circles and easy pagan gatherings are scenes and not communities.
However, I cannot help but think that most of this stems from the teachings that the author reveres so well -- fluffy teachings.
I can't say I've read a LOT of books on magic and how you should go about it, but I can say that the books I hold in high regard are the ones that point out these facts before you even begin.
He's quoting people like Starhawk (who's 'famous quotation' is pretty close to plagiarizing Crowley imo) and... Terry Pratchett? Is Discworld a functional magical system or even relevant?
He's also referring to themselves as a 'mystery tradition' when by his description, I see pagans practicing open source//outer court material with no mystery involved.
My suggestion to all people who think this way -- teach. He obviously has the basics down without necessarily having read anything to sway his opinion on it. There's no need to complain about these people -- people who want to learn will learn, people who won't will have to learn the hard way, or ditch the path that probably doesn't fit them anyway.
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:46 am
I think that the point he was trying to make though, was that the Fluff is winning out. It's the dedicated ones who are abandoning "open" practice, not the other way around.
I'm not up on Crowley (so I can't comment on that), but as far as general witchcraft goes, Starhawk (and Reclaiming in general) is a good place to start , if one is looking for that particular "flavor" of the craft.
The main problem is all the crap books that are out there, leading people to believe that whatever they want to know should be handed to them on a silver platter. No one wants to do any of the work that is needed.
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:02 pm
ncsweet I think that the point he was trying to make though, was that the Fluff is winning out. It's the dedicated ones who are abandoning "open" practice, not the other way around. This is what I got from the article as well. Quote: No one wants to do any of the work that is needed. Indeed; a quick look at the Wicca threads that pop up in the LD and M&R are more often than not proof of this IMO. Ranging from "Give me a spell to accomplish X" to "But I can't find a coven to initiate me in my town! Can't I just call myself Wiccan if I dedicate/initiate myself??" I feel like there is no differentiating between seeking wisdom from other people, from being given easy-to-digest, one line answers that wrap things up in a pretty package for some of those people.
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:02 pm
It's frustrating for those of us who are more than willing to do the work, not to be able to find someone. The sad part is, I can understand completely why they wouldn't want to put themselves out there any more. The energy drain is astronomical, when everyone wants you to give, but aren't adding anything back of their own. Quote: "But I can't find a coven to initiate me in my town! Can't I just call myself Wiccan if I dedicate/initiate myself??" While I would firmly advise them not to call it Wicca, if someone works out their own path (that is based on open cultures/valid available info) then more power to them. But there is a whole lot more to it than, simply having a ritual and saying "I'm in". There is still a lot of work to be done, and if one has never had any kind of formal training (magical, energy, etc...) it can be very difficult to learn certain techniques from a book.
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:15 pm
Quote: "But I can't find a coven to initiate me in my town! Can't I just call myself Wiccan if I dedicate/initiate myself??" I would happen to be one of those people though I don't call myself a Wiccan i call myself a Pagan. Though i do hate it when people don't commit themselves to the religion. I've tried to hold rituals though i have no books or know where to find them so it's very hard but I have turned to others I've met out of town to help enlighten me on said things. I do not ever ask I need a spell to accomplish X i say do you know a spell to accomplish X that's easy to use because I'm a beginner at these kinds of things. I only actually know 2 spells one which takes as long as needed the other which i learned the hard way needs to be repeated over and over. Currently I'm working on knowing basics of Wiccan so I can be considered one. That's my two sense for the topic.
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:35 pm
ncsweet Quote: "But I can't find a coven to initiate me in my town! Can't I just call myself Wiccan if I dedicate/initiate myself??" While I would firmly advise them not to call it Wicca, if someone works out their own path (that is based on open cultures/valid available info) then more power to them. But there is a whole lot more to it than, simply having a ritual and saying "I'm in". There is still a lot of work to be done, and if one has never had any kind of formal training (magical, energy, etc...) it can be very difficult to learn certain techniques from a book. -nod- I think that's what I was trying to get across. Making one's own path is good and I think could be quite fulfilling in the challenges that it presents. But it's not Wicca and shouldn't be called Wicca. I also meant for it to touch on the aspect that Wicca is very rarely in someone's backyard (LOL as you know too well!) and there doesn't seem to be this kind of understanding or acceptance that they just might have to take time out to travel and make sacrifices of energy and money in order to obtain what they want and/or need. Zslone2 I would happen to be one of those people though I don't call myself a Wiccan i call myself a Pagan. I touched on the other implications of that kind of statement above. I don't think I really need to add anything else. Zslone2 Though i do hate it when people don't commit themselves to the religion. For beginners, I'm not so sure committing to a certain faith is a particularly good idea. I feel like committing yourself to a system before you have a good, solid, working understanding of it is putting the cart before the horse. I might even say a beginner's focus should be to learn, not to commit. Zslone2 I've tried to hold rituals though i have no books or know where to find them so it's very hard but I have turned to others I've met out of town to help enlighten me on said things. I won't lie; trying to hold rituals when you're not quite sure what to do or why strikes me as kind of...weird. If you're working with deities in said ritual, what if you do something to offend them? I don't think any beginner wants to start out their path on some deities' s**t-list. Have you looked on amazon.com for books? Or even inquired at your local library if inter-library loan books are a possibility? Zslone2 I do not ever ask I need a spell to accomplish X i say do you know a spell to accomplish X that's easy to use because I'm a beginner at these kinds of things. I only actually know 2 spells one which takes as long as needed the other which i learned the hard way needs to be repeated over and over. This also strikes me as weird, to put it lightly. So it's not just "Give me a spell for X because I can't think of it on my own" it's "Give me a spell for X and make it an easy one."? I'm not sure what you're saying is much better than the simple "Give me a spell for X." neutral I am a firm believer that if YOU are casting the spell YOU should be able to create it. If you want to put together a spell and show it to others for their feedback and/or input, that's fine (and I might say even encouraged in some cases). But, asking someone for a spell that they put the time and effort into making and working with to make sure everything came out right is, well....lazy on the surface, but I DO understand that for a lot of beginners, it seems the logical thing to do. I feel that this also touches on what I said in an earlier post about the difference between seeking wisdom and wanting answers handed to you, gift-wrapped and on a platter. If you are really a beginner at these things though, it is advisable that you start with basic-basics. Work on visualisation, meditation, strengthening your focus. Zslone2 Currently I'm working on knowing basics of Wiccan so I can be considered one. That's my two sense for the topic. It takes a good bit more than learning the basics of Wicca to be considered one wink
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:37 pm
Thanks all the your doing this wrong made me feel great. I do attempt to try and do very basic things anyone could do. Though i admit I am lazy so I don't get around to doing everything i intend to do. At least I have a group of like minded people to correct my wrongs at attempt to enlighten me (though I have a very thick skull so things must be repeated and repeated over and over lol) Thanks for the do's and don'ts of attempting to be called a Wiccan.
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:54 pm
Zslone2 Thanks all the your doing this wrong made me feel great. Learning isn't always a pleasant experience. As Morg has said before somewhere else, one of the focal points of Wicca is one must suffer to learn. Also, you might want to point out where I expressly said "You're doing it wrong." I simply stated that the order in which you're doing things doesn't make sense to me. Tell me, do you actually wish to learn? Or do you just want affirmation on what you are doing? I want to know how I should start responding. Quote: I do attempt to try and do very basic things anyone could do. Though i admit I am lazy so I don't get around to doing everything i intend to do. Same. What matters though is that you at least try blaugh . Quote: At least I have a group of like minded people to correct my wrongs at attempt to enlighten me (though I have a very thick skull so things must be repeated and repeated over and over lol) Thanks for the do's and don'ts of attempting to be called a Wiccan. I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic...but you're welcome I think? xd
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:28 pm
I was being serious in the last sentence. And i think i actually wanna know, I do care about the religion, its deities, rituals, holidays, and such. So i think Im interested, though I don't really know much about myself anymore seeing how I lost my way a couple months back and everything is just confusing now.
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:28 pm
I think that is where I was extremely lucky, when I first came to the craft, since I was with others who were experienced. While I'm still partial to the Reclaiming Community, I know it's not quite the path for me. Which is a complete bummer, because there is a group in Durham. gonk
Zslone... with Wicca, unfortunately (and believe me I sympathize completely) one can know the basics (upside-down and backwards) and it won't make one Wiccan. Only though initiation into a lineaged coven, does one attain such a status. Which based on Vi's article is still a really good thing, even though it sucks for those of us who are seriously seeking.
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Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:15 am
So basically i should find something else that suits me in the Pagan community? One that doesn't involve needing a coven since I aint gonna find one in the near future
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:04 am
If you are serious about Wicca, then keep Seeking. It can take many years to find a coven and often does. At the same time, you can look further afield within Paganism to see if anything strikes your fancy.
You may find another path and decide to stop seeking Wicca; you may decide Wicca suits you best; you may practise both.
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:30 pm
Zslone2 So basically i should find something else that suits me in the Pagan community? One that doesn't involve needing a coven since I aint gonna find one in the near future  For the Rose is a Beautiful FlowerNope.
You should follow a Wicca inspired path,
work on developing yourself and your spirituality.
If you focus on making yourself ready to be part of a circle,
when you are truly ready you will find one,
or it will find you.
Work out ways of expressing your spirituality that you can do by yourself.
Often times we get what we need, not what we want. A Beautiful Flower with Thorns
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