Can muggles use magical items?

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

Can muggles use magical items?

I know what most of you are probably thinking: Of course not, they can't use magic. But some items don't need magic to work. Think about it. You don't have to say a spell or wave a wand to make the broomstick fly. And Fred and George proved that muggles are susceptible to jinxes on normal items. If they weren't, Arthur Weasley wouldn't have a job. So, we know that if something is spelled to do something, like to Ton-Tongue Toffees, it will affect a person regardless of their magical status. So, can a muggle fly a broom? It's already been spelled to do the work, after all. Can they fall into a Pensive? Harry didn't cast a spell. He just poked his nose in it. So the question becomes, do you have to have magical powers for a spell on an item to work with you? Does it depend on the situation, on the spell?

What are your thoughts?

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[gina787]

Hmm thats very interesting. I think they could use the item as long as they don't need magic to make it work. Like, they wouldn't be able to use the Marauder's Map but they might be able to use a broom. BUT muggles are usually completely unaware that there is magic around them so even if they should stumble upon a magical item and it works for them, they probably wouldn't think it was magic. They would just find some logical explanation for it. It's amazing the lengths muggles will go to explain away magical incidents. BUT what if they are aware that magic exists (like Hermione's parents)? Can they detect magic then?

 

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

Oh, I have no doubt that Hermione's parents would realize what a flying broom is. And I do think that most muggles who are unaware of the magical world would logic the idea of magic away. My question is, if they realize what it is or not, would they be able to use it? Obviously it would be a very odd situation for a muggle to see a broom and try to fly on it. Unless they were a child, and playing make believe. But, theoretically, if they stumbled across one and tried to use it, could they?
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[gina787]

I think that it all depends.

I don't think muggles can use a magical object. At least not really USE it. We know they come in contact with magic or else there would be no point to the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office.

Basically I think that they can't use magical objects because they need to have some sort of magical ability to make it work. Like a broom for example. I think that what makes a broom fly is the magic ability of its user. Remember when they learned to fly in Sorcerer's Stone? Not everyone's broom worked properly. I think it relies on the magic of the person. I think this is true of most objects unless they've been cursed or prepared for a specific purpose. Like if teacups were bewitched to bite anyone who touches them that would include muggles because there is no magic necessary. The object performs as soon as it's touched and technically it's just doing its job so muggles aren't really USING it.

Did any of that make sense? I think I confused myself stressed

 

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

No, that makes sense. Although I didn't post this for a right or wrong answer. It was more a contemplative, speak your thoughts kind of thing. You do have a very good idea of how it works. It does make sense.

I only see one flaw with your theory. You say that the broom working depends on your magical abilities because not everyone's broom worked immediately. But that would mean that some of the students were more advanced than others in their magical abilities. Based on that, Hermione's broom should have shot straight up to her, not Harry's, because she was the most skilled at magic of those present. And if it were based on wizarding lineage, rather than skill, Ron's would have, because he's pureblood. The only basis that would have made Harry's broom react that way is natural ability with a broom, which is sort of flaky, because are we to believe that the magic in the broom could tell he would be good on it? So what is the basis to judge the wizarding ability that causes the broom to react?
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[hilaryparkers]

I agree with Gina. I think in the case of a broom or a wand, it all depends on the magic of the person. Floo Powder they'd be able to use to an extent. They'd be able to walk into the fire, but they might not know that they can use it to transport or contact somebody. A pensive, Riddle's diary, the Mirror of Erised, or a portkey and objects of the like don't seem to need any magic from the person though, just the item. Of course most muggles would try to explain it away as a dream or something, I still think they could use them. Riddle's diary for example, all Harry did was write something with a regular quill and soon enough he got a response because the item itself was magical, Harry's powers had anything to do with how the diary worked. With the mirror, all Harry did was look into it and he saw his deepest desire, he didn't have to think of it, any muggle could look into a mirror!
Another thing, it's quite obvious muggles can see magical creatures. Just look at all the fairytales on unicorns and dragons! Muggles don't need magic to see these creatures or interact with them, why should magical items be any different?  

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

I think that it is probably a good reasoning, but I am still bothered by the flaw I mentioned beforehand. Natural Quidditch ability isn't a very good basis for the broom to fly. And Neville's magical ability at that point in the series was dangerous at best, and yes, he couldn't control the broom, but he still managed to fly. I don't think that magical ability matters so much.
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[gina787]

I don't think it's about being more advanced in magical abilities. I think it's a simple question of subconscious inclination. Just as we excel in certain areas and aren't so great in others it stands to reason that wizards would be the same. So maybe it's just a question of natural aptitude. It would explain why Neville who is forever messing up seems to excel in Herbology. Or why Harry, who had never flown before in his life, seems to do so effortlessly. It would also explain why Hermione who excels in other areas like potions and transfigurations can't seem to grasp divinations or flying. It just isn't her thing. She's inclined to excel in areas that are more logical. Her strengths are intellect and wit. These help her in everything except divinations and flying. So maybe it's a question of magical abilities AND natural aptitude.

 

[Minerva the Bookwyrm]

Ooh, very interesting discussion! Mia gets 5 points for making the topic, and Gina gets 5 points for explaining her theory so well. razz

I agree with Gina; objects that don't require a magical trigger (the way that entering Diagon Alley and opening the Marauders map requires one) can be unintentionally used by Muggles. However, magical objects, like broomsticks, react to the fact that the wizards have magic inside of their bodies. A Muggle could accidentlly use a magical object, but not control it.  

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

That makes sense, Gina.

I personally think that a muggle could, not really use a broom, but that it would react to their trying. Like say if a muggle sibling of a witch wanted to play with their sisters broom, the broom might do what the brooms in SS did and just sort of flop a bit, because they don't really require a trigger so much as a drive. Magical ability is probably part of the equation, but the brooms themselves have to have some sort of magic in them, otherwise any broom would work. Working the broom I think is sort of 50/50, the broom itself doing some of the work, and the magic in the rider doing the other part. So because the broom itself is magical and doesn't really have any trigger (there's no incantation that is), I think that it would work, but not well. I don't think a muggle could actually ride it.
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[Matelia legwll]

What type of magical items are we talking about here? Muggle things that are charmed/cursed to act in a certain way? Or Magical-made items that Muggles could accidentally happen across?

Because the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office actually deals with those Muggle-made items that wizards have enchanted to change the nature of those items. It does not deal with things like Portraits, Wands, Mirrors, or Brooms.

Now, we seem to have focused on the Broom aspect. But Brooms are Wizard-made, and therefore can measure the magic and/or inclination and/or talent for flying. Brooms, even more than Wands, are considered to be responsive and have a nature of their own apart from the Wizards that control them. Brooms respond to the Wizard's touch to operate properly, and Harry's Firebolt, for instance, was so in tune with his magic and his desires that Harry felt it acted on his thoughts more than his actual touch.

Brooms are also compared to horses, who know when their rider is skittish or confident. And the two that were least confident on that Quidditch Pitch first year were Hermione and Neville. Ron might have been preoccupied, and he was paired with a really old broom anyway; so it might have actually been the broom's fault that Ron's broom didn't fly up immediately.

I think the main determiner of whether a Muggle can use a magical object is if it was made by Muggles and enchanted by Wizards, or if the item was Wizard-made. Still, the Muggles would be without control of any of the magical items.

Now as for Portraits and the Weasley candy--These two seem to be the only fully Wizard-made items that actually do cross over and can be used by Muggles to some degree. (And that's assuming the Weasley candy is made from scratch with pure Magical ingredients--Quite a stretch of reason.) But the Portrait, we actually do get a Canon scene where a Muggle talks to a Portrait. Yes, The Other Minister. But it would be impossible for a Muggle to make a Wizarding Portrait, and the magic seems to come from the fact that the person who painted it and the person painted in the portrait are actually Wizards.

For the Muggle-made and enchanted items, I think that Muggles can interact with them, use them, etc, if they don't require what Min called a magical trigger. Portkeys for instance. Once they are enchanted from old Muggle junk, they work on anyone that is touching them at the right time. In fact, when we are introduced to Portkeys, the Weasleys make a point of saying that it is made from junk so Muggles don't pick it up and fool around with the Portkeys. The same for all the Muggle stuff that Arthur has to deal with in his job. Once enchanted, these objects work on everyone indiscriminately.

Potions, however, I notice no one has mentioned yet.

Oh, and only certain animals and creatures can actually be seen by Muggles. Other animals and creatures have either been regulated by the Ministry or learned ways of their own to hide from Muggles. Dementors aren't even seen by Squibs, so there has to be some magical quality to see dementors, and thestrals are only visible to those that have seen death.

Overall, good topic! This one made me think. biggrin  

[Jedi Knight26]

First, we do know that Squibs can see dementors. It happens in book 5 when the dementors attack Harry and Dudley, and Mrs. Figg (who is a Squib) testifies at Harry's hearing as to what the dementors looked like and did.
And I agree with Matelia about the magical creatures-that Muggles would be able to see them, but most have learned to go into hiding and stay in forests away from prying eyes.
Also, we know that Muggles more than likely can use potions. Because in the sixth book Dumbledore has guessed that Voldemort's mother, Merope, was giving his father, Tom Riddle, a love potion so he would love her. So we know that Muggles can use potions. They wouldn't recognize it as a potion, and they would try to find a way to explain the effects that it had on them.
As for items, they can use it as long as they don't need any type of magic to use/activate it. So if it was something like the cursed necklace in book six, and a Muggle touched it, they would be cursed, because they don't need any magic or anything, all someone would have to is touch it.  

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

I think that another example of potion use would be the candies, because it seems to me that those would be made with some sort of potion rather than a charm or jinx, because traditionally charms and jinxes wear off, whereas potions do not.

Nari, I believe that the assumption was made that Ms. Figg couldn't really see the dementors, and that she was lying in order to help Harry. It wasn't actually said, but it was heavily implied. Whether or not she actually could wasn't brought up, but it's safe to assume she could not.

I think the focus was on brooms so much because they are probably the easiest example to use.

What about the Dark Detectors that Fake Moody had in his office? They were constantly working, without Moody using any spell to activate them. The Sneakoscope I think is obvious, that doesn't require any magic, and wizards who own them can't even 'turn them off' without breaking them, so it goes to reason that the muggles could use them if they knew what they were. What about a Foe-glass? Could they unlock the magical trunk?
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[Minerva the Bookwyrm]

Great job with your contributions nariko and Matelia. You both earn 5 points too! whee

Figg told Harry that she could see dementors. Even if she lied to Fudge, why would she lie to Harry about it?  

[ScottieBears MiaKitty]

Min: Perhaps because she was embarrassed about it? She's a Squib, which from what I can tell from the wizarding society is even worse than being muggleborn witch or wizard, because at least mudbloods could use magic. It could have been a reflex. She's so used to lying about things in an attempt to integrate herself into the wizarding world that it was a knee jerk reaction. Another reason could be that maybe she was afraid that if he knew he would blow it, because let's face it, he isn't very good at lying when he's in trouble. He tends to stutter and mix his stories up when he knows what he's saying isn't true.
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