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Quinn Darkheart

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 am


I have some familiarity with skyships (my D&D campaign uses them extensively), and would like to point out that the most logical dock for a boat is one that extends on water, and therefore, the most logical dock for a Airship is one that extends on air.
The grand city of Skythorne (My World) has a massive port that floats above the city and allows free trade, as if it were a separate trading village inside the city.
Airships don't like to land on the dirt, especially if they look anything remotely like boats still. Water can be a problem too, if you take into account that you can open places on the hull of a boat for Cannons on an Airship that would be impossible to do with a ocean-borne vessel.

To Summarize, I not only agree that floating towns should be possible, they are in fact more logical. If the boat flies, the dock should to.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:45 pm


Quinn Darkheart
Airships don't like to land on the dirt, especially if they look anything remotely like boats still. Water can be a problem too, if you take into account that you can open places on the hull of a boat for Cannons on an Airship that would be impossible to do with a ocean-borne vessel.

To Summarize, I not only agree that floating towns should be possible, they are in fact more logical. If the boat flies, the dock should to.

The following is from an Engineer's perspective. Whilst I acknowledge your point, I beg to differ.

NB: The following only applies to flying docks (as mentioned above) and not settlements.

Whilst I acknowledge your point, I beg to differ; I once had an idea much like that.

Said docks would be large balloons (spherical), around the middle of which were large wooden/metal platforms, attached to which were the various piers - jutting out into the open sky - onto which the airships would dock. Said balloon was then tethered to the settlement, so that it wouldn't float away. 'twas much like this:

User Image

However, the more I thought about it, the more I though: "You know, this idea is pretty silly".

My reasoning went as follows:

1) The dock itself, being a giant balloon, is essentially just an airship itself - albeit one much larger (and presumably with a large carrying capacity) than any of the airships that would dock with it. Which led to a few problems:

a) If you can make airdocks that big, why not use it as an airship, you'd be able to carry more. Or at least airships that big. But then what would they dock with, even bigger docks? And then would you know make airships that big as well? [and so on]

b) Given it's like another airship, it'd be a bit like nautical vessels docking with a floating port. Which is not only completely unlike real ports, but also pretty silly to contemplate:

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Slight exaggeration to get point across

This also leads on to problem 2 (see below).

c) Would not you want to give an airship shelter? Or at the very least, somewhere to repair? If the airship would not survive a storm, the flying dock would likely not survive it either. And what if the dock was in need of dire repair?

2) Another major problem with an airship docking with a flying dock, is what then? Suppose it was carrying cargo (or passengers, even), how would said cargo be transported to land? Asides from a cable car or lift of sorts running down the tether (which would be impractical, especially given large cargoes); the only sensible conclusion is another airship.
But then where would it dock, if not a land based dock? If we're having this extra step in getting things to the ground, why not have the first airship do so?

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If we were to compare this to floating boat docks, there'd have to be boats taking that cargo to land, no? And they'd need something to dock with.
Even supposing you've got a 'floating trading port', as an aerial part of a city, you've still for the problem of getting things to and from said port.

3) I then compared it to nautical docks; which extend out from land into the water (being the boat's natural element) and there cargo and passengers can be loaded/unloaded easily (as is the case in every port). And if need be repaired, can be brought into docks (as coverings over a water channel) or (if need be) dry dock.

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So if nautical docks are like this, should not aerial docks be the same? And if you look at real airship docks, they are much like this:

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This is the most feasible dock for an airship, the airship remains in the air (and as such is completely none the worse off for docking close to land) and can very easily be loaded/unloaded/repaired/refuelled etc.. Much like a real nautical dock is a pier extending from land into water; so would an aerial dock be a 'pier' extending from land into the air.
Real airship docks do not have airships landing with a crunch on land (or water, for that matter) - they are merely held very close to it, still completely in the air. Whilst some may have wheels, airships do not land properly - and indeed may collapse under their own weight if they did so, so built are they to be lifted constantly.

In summary, just like nautical docks don't float (for all intents and purposes); if the boat flies, the dock needn't as well. It should just stay put, where it's needed.
Ultimately: If what's carried on the airship needs to go to land, that's where the airship needs to go too.
Same applies to loading, as well as repair (ease of getting supplies to the airship) and refuelling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to crush your ideas - I can see where you're coming from, and respect the conclusion you've drawn - but this is something I've put (perhaps too much) thought into, and felt like saying. However, the whole floating dock idea is way more interesting, just not practical (in my view).

Side note: Floating settlements are absolutely fine with the above in mind, as one can merely substitute 'land' with 'the settlement'.

CapnAlex
Captain


Quinn Darkheart

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:04 pm


Wow, that is a lot of work you have put into that.
I am awed by you're impressive knowledge on the subject and bow to your greater know how.
I must admit, i am really impressed.

Also, I was thinking less along the lines of Dirigibles (which you have illustrated) and more along the lines of Flying boats (Like those in Final Fantasy and the like) But at least i now have a better frame of reference.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:08 pm


Thank you very much for your compliments. Sometimes I think too much and can't stop myself. Frankly, I must thank you for giving me the opportunity to do all that, 'twas kinda fun (to me, at least).
I must say, though, flying ports is rather more shiny than the more practical alternative (as is the way with most things).

All manner of airships are welcome in the Anachronism, I just picked zeppelins as they were easier to draw.
I've got a few designs for all sorts of ships; some with gondolas below a balloon; some with the main part above (looks like a submarine); some ships suspended below balloons (or even two balloons); others more integrated, small ships; and some with no balloons at all. I like to doodle.

CapnAlex
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:26 pm


Hm... whilst on the subject of floating piers and such... for passenger loading and un-loading, would there be a 'hanger' like place where they would board, or be ferried out to board? ( a walkway, or... hm, wired trolly?) I get the idea of the mechanics, but given the idea of militia and air pirates, possibilities for assault and methods of escape are the next thing to ponder, at least for me.

Just getting an idea of the set up so I can think up ways make use of the space from what y'all directors give out. Plus, we all know how stores use interesting locations! =D
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:29 am


An excellent question. For passengers there are two options.

The first, which also applies for cargo, is that the airship 'lands' [as seen in the upper part of Fig. 5, and people disembark by simply stepping off (much like that would with a plane).
The second is shown in the lower part of Fig. 5, where the airship connects with a tower, and passengers get out onto the pier of sorts (the line under H.M.S. Cruise), and then take a lift down to the ground. Often employed when the airship is making a quick stop. This can be done with cargo, but is impractical if cargo is large or heavy.

Due to the aerial nature of the Anachronism, it's docking procedures are somewhat different (which I will elaborate on later, hopefully soon).

CapnAlex
Captain


Quinn Darkheart

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:42 pm


I would like to offer an interesting device.
Called a Wayfarer's staff, or a Journeyman's stick, it appears to be a 8 foot long staff about two inches wide. When the button on the staff is pressed, it extends four feet out the top end, and expands four propellers that spin on two axis (two blades per Axis) in different Directions (To maintain lift without spinning the whole staff). At the same time, at the bottom, two stands cast out.
So, You stand on the staff, and the props lift you into the air. You navigate by simple weight distribution, that is, you lean the direction you want to go.
Is powered by compressed steam into a complex clockwork inside the staff, it has a one hour usage before requiring recharging.
This item is primarily intended for usage in the fashion of a parachute or a lifeboat off an airship, or simply to travel short distances.
The steam compression cylinder can be recharged or replaced.

What do you think?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:08 am


*strokes chin* I'm a bit perturbed by the apparent unfeasibility of the item, but it seems decent enough.

Similar devices already exist in backpack form (in this setting); and I also conceived a device with twin tesla coils which alters the density of air around you, giving you buoyancy. The more power, the more you lift.

CapnAlex
Captain


Quinn Darkheart

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:42 am


Twin Tesla Coils huh... Very intresting.
on a side note, as friend of mine and myself are Actually planing the building of a Tesla Coil Bike. It should be fun!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:34 am


I like the idea of disembarking on land if it's a smaller ship. It'll be easier to save energy and overall ground space. I'd think it would take about the same amount of time to load and lift than to lift people and take off. Smaller ships can move about easier, and would likely be pleasure crafts, and guarding them, in the case of loading a really specialized item, would be easier on the ground. Plus I like the idea of imaging a huge procession marching up to the airship in some sort of ceremony and boarding. =P

For bigger ships, I'd say keeping them in the air to load and using a lift might work. Perhaps for large items, there can be a direct lift from the cargo of the large ship to the ground via a pulley/gear driven system. A huge ship landing would displace a lot of ground space, and well... there would be more heat and possibly (exhaust?) fumes mixing with the air the people are breathing.

A variance would be nice.

while we're on transportation... anyone have thoughts on what kind of vehicles or transportation systems there might be on the ground or used in on the Anachronism? Bikes? Motorbikes? Is there rentals, or would most people be able to buy/own one? Hmm...

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CapnAlex
Captain

PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:59 pm


Apologies, madam, but the Engineer part of me begs to differ. Principally, an airship will only ever land* if is has to.

Whilst I find the idea of a procession quite splendid, how the airship 'does its business' is based primarily on practicality. However, an airship would certainly land for ceremony.

For anything that is quick, and that includes the loading of passengers; it is far better for the airship to remain in the air (if only to spare it the complications of landing). In case of passengers, a simple lift in the docking tower would take them to the airship. Such a tower would also require far less ground space (as there need only be space for the tower), and far less energy (as the airship is quite happy to sit where it is, and will always move to the best position with regards to the wind).

However, for anything that requires some period of time (for instance, loading of delicate items, loading of cargos, refuelling, repair, simply waiting, etc.) landing is far more preferable - if only so that the airship can be made secure against the weather (cross winds being a problem for any loading operation) and not have to expend energy maintaining its position. In such instances, the airship would be easily moved on ground to where it was safest (often a hangar). This process would most certainly require a great deal of land, but is more convinient.
A lift from airship to ground would not be practical, as such a lift would have to be of quite considerable size and power. Cables being the only suitable way to produce the required extension, any small movement of the airship above would be magnified and thus potentially devastating on the ground. If the airship were to be low enough for any such lift to be practical, it may as well land.
Whilst the airship in landing/take off would most definitely produce heat and pollution; once grounded need not keep its engines running, eliminating these problems.

In practice, aircraft 'landing' areas would be equipped with whatever works best for the airship in question, and may often have a docking tower as well as a hangar.

It may be worth noting that the landing methods on the Anachronism differ significantly to those used on land. Whilst docking with towers remains the same (these arranged atop the connecting bridges of the City) - there is no ground manoeuvring space. Instead, all hangars are underneath the bridges, essentially being a tunnel running all the way through them - which will provide the airship with all the shelter it requires, are designed for ease of loading with their specific ship, and can be approached from whichever angle is safest. Ground space is not a luxury airships can afford on the Anachronism, but fortunately they seldom need it.

* NB: Landing here refers to the airship being in very close proximity to the ground, possibly on wheels or attached to a mobile docking array.

~

All manner of land based transportation is used. Due to the revolving nature of many parts of the Anachronism, the most mobile methods are preferred; monowheels, penny farthings, clockwork automobiles, anything you can stick wheels and a steam engine to.
In terms of public transport, each cog and ring has their own over-ground train service, often running around the rim of the cog/ring. (However, warehouses etc. may have their own line for convenience). Due to the curved, and this unsuitable for trains, nature of the bridges, a sort of cable-car is employed (only the cable is replaced with a toothed track).

All these things will be elaborated on later. I would do it now, but I'm going away for a few days.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:05 pm


Steam-powered vehicles are common in steam punk, motorcycles and Especially Monowheels are often seen.
While ground travel may be fun, Flight is might.

Quinn Darkheart


Starflyer1

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:02 pm


Ah, that answered my question. I was simply pondering instances where different landings would be used and the rules for each. It was merely from a setting stand-point, so I can get an idea of when each would be used. Less settings used, and the more simplicity in the setting, the more the story can stand out. Though I'd would hardly think to compromise the mechanics of the setting. That will be a huge draw to the story after all.

I had to create a future world for my screen writing 3 final script AND pitch said script to professionals for a story writing class's final. I tell ya, creating something new to present to an audience, no matter if the theme is understood, can be difficult to explain if the little things aren't fine tuned so each part's meaning is understood.

The vehicles are interesting... hm... but which would our characters probably use more... probably best to stick with a couple of basic designs as first and expand if need me. Plus, associating a character with one certain type of transportation can have it's up sides, and appeal.

... and again I'm on here past 1am. >_o ... so much for 'being strict about getting offline at midnight.'
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:09 am


Captain Amaranth
While I'm here, it may be worth saying a few noteworthy facets of the setting:

- In this here setting, there is no such thing as magic; at least not in the 'classical' fantasy shoot-beams-of-searing-energy-from-my-hands sort of way. There do, however, exist parlour tricks and spiritualism (including illusionary acts, communing with ghosts etc.). But they all have perfectly rational explanations. Basically: the laws of physics apply.

- This is still set on Earth, circa 1800s - humans (or close variations thereof) only please. Robots are ok.


I assumed as much when I created the steampunk version of my alter-ego, Kitirena, which is why in her character profile there's a not-so-subtle nod to The Island of Dr. Moreau in her background. As far as her "magical" abilities go, when I put that in, I was thinking more along the lines of AD&D's "Masquerade of the Red Death" Ravenloft setting or the Gaslight supplement for Call of Cthulhu, where "magick" could be explained in terms of unusual mathematics (a la Lovecraft) and/or unexplained "psychic" abilities as opposed to throwing around fireballs and lightning bolts like Gandalf the Grey or a certain Mr. Potter.

I presume that someone mostly human despite feline ears, tail, and unusual mannerisms (in keeping with the "Dr. Moreau" theme to her backstory) would be acceptable in the setting of the story/graphic novel?

Starflyer1
That reminds me of something my half brother said yeeears ago. You see, he loved airplanes, and when looking up at the sky one night with him, mentioned all the Stars. To which he said, "That's not a star, that's an AIRPORT!"

You see, he thought airplanes stayed up in the air at all times. Perhaps that can be used as a transportation method around Anachronism, and to other floating places. Little air cabs with 'air'ports for them to refuel and stop. Kinda like blimps, but more steamy.

I figure this has already been thought up and covered, but, eh, why not? I'm getting excited about this!


If I understand you correctly, this sounds a bit like the air cabs that travel around Alexandria in Final Fantasy XI--driven by propellers and traveling around the city on rails, with fixed stops at terminals in each major district, which would be in keeping with the steampunk setting. (Of course, the rails in FF9's airships could readily be dispensed with, with the air cabs being a parallel to the hansom cabs of Victorian-era London where a skilled and licensed pilot flies his (or her) cab through predetermined air lanes to a given destination--or so I presume.)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:24 pm


Noting the good captain's discussion on ships landing, certain airships, such as the Laughing Eagle, can have a set of skiff landing gear.

These ships do land, totally on the ground, because of their purpose. In the case of the Laughing Eagle, it allows Jad to load heavier artifacts/salvage/cargo he can't carry into the range of his crane. So technically, his airship has a necessity to land for it to function properly.

it is also able to airdock, as it is the 'ship under ballons' type of aircraft.
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