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What the hell are you even talking about? I'm feeling some abuse of power coming on.

Go ahead. It's not like you haven't done it in the past. It is funny, though, that you're acting like you have no idea what I'm talking.

As for gladly giving respect, I've never seen you give anyone respect, gladly or not. I suspect you would "respect" someone who agreed with you and licked your boots, but, sadly, you will not get that from me.

Probably because you only pay attention to my more contentious remarks, and not the other times when I'm actually every bit as civil as anyone else.

Seriously, what's this persecution complex you've got going on? I'm not trying to play "gotcha," I'm not pulling punches.

It's not a persecution complex. In my OP for this thread, I wasn't at all referring to this guild. You came in and made some wild accusation (that you still haven't taken responsibility for being absolutely wrong about) and I'm not sure where it came from.

Looking back, I see it was "BeautifulDick" who actually made the thread and, while I still believe that was you, since I have no proof, I'll rescind that.

That was me, too. Still, nothing in this thread was in reference to anything I've said in the Pro-choice subforum.

If you were not speaking of that thread, praytell, what were you speaking of?

The Abortion Debate thread, perhaps?


How about, "The Bible says so," That would be based on the ten commandments and the whole "thou shalt not kill" bit. "God doesn't want us to kill babies," So...he does want us to kill babies? "You're killing babies," Depending on whether or not you feel a fetus and a baby are ultimately the same thing -- a member of the human species on the outset of existence -- this isn't exactly untrue" "You're murderers," So killing an unborn child and killing someone outside the womb are totally different concepts? etc? Yeah, it's all on a theme, but we're not talking about intelligent people here.

I wouldn't call any of those arguments uneducated, for one. Feelings-based and moral righteousness abounds? Yes. But, the idea that killing a human being is wrong, is murder, isn't smiled upon by God? That's not uneducated. It doesn't have anything to do with education. Maybe a need to understand the opposition better, but I don't believe those claims are meant to be "educational".

And are those mantras, or mere accusations?

And like I remember who exactly they were. This was two years ago. I don't memorize the names of every stupid person I meet; That would take up all of my brain space, and I need that for more important things. Be glad I remember your name.

Then don't make ridiculous appeals to moderation, if you know you can't build on it with anything substantial. Don't be like, "pro-lifers are dumb. Pro-choicers are dumb. What can ya do?" when you're just saying that so the people in the subforum don't start to think you're taking sides and wont like you anymore. Trust me, they wouldn't afford you the same courtesy.

If you're going to act as if pro-lifers, both here and IRL, do the same things to make their point, make both arguments, or don't make either one of them. My contention never was that pro-choicers are singularly responsible for bad debate. It's just that dishonest and lazy centrism like yours does nothing to speak honesty into the debate, and it allows the pro-choicers (who are the majority here on Gaia) keep with their BS and pro-lifers who don't do it have to just take it because someone, somewhere, at some point in time, for some reason, who called themselves pro-life, did it too.


Again, like I remember there names. Do you deny that such Pro-Lifers exist?

That's irrelevant. You made the claim that there were pro-lifers who did it too, as if I didn't know that. I'm asking you who. If you don't remember names, fine, but see above. Perhaps because you don't debate any more, you haven't noticed the dynamics have changed.


What? I'm very strongly Pro-Life, Erasmas. I am in the, apparently small, percentage who believe that abortion should be reserved for only cases where the mother's life is in danger, and that it shouldn't be called abortion then as the death of the fetus is an unfortunate side effect of saving the mother's life. I just don't defend people just because they are also Pro-Life. And I don't attack people just because they are Pro-Choice.

How magnanimous of you.

I know you've got this "It's a war, us against them, so why be nice?" thing going on, but that's not the case Sure it is. Maybe not the "war" part, but I'm still confounded by the idea that we should be nice to pro-choicers who seriously don't give a s**t about our position.; There are intelligent people on both sides, there are stupid, gullible, sheeplike people on both sides. Another appeal to moderation. As Pro-Lifers, we all tend to see it as "Pro-Choicers are gullible, stupid people otherwise they wouldn't be Pro-Choice," but that's simply not the case. I don't think that about pro-choicers. I think a lot of them default to the pro-choice position for other, transient reasons, which allow them to support a barbaric act. I think most of the strident pro-choicers don't know what the hell they're talking about. But...I wouldn't say the position itself is stupid and gullible. I do believe that their arguments are, on a whole, wrong and incomplete. I think it's ridiculous how many people believe them. But it is not because they are stupid. But it is because some of them are stupid. It's because that's the way they've been raised I'd disagree., it's because that's the way everyone around them thinks true, and it's because they have developed an emotional belief that the right to bodily integrity overwrites every other right.


You most likely misunderstood what I was saying; What I was saying was, there are probably more hit-and-runners, and mindless zealots, on the Pro-Life side, because a lot of sensible Pro-Lifers just quit the debate, because they don't want to deal with the stress. There's not as much stress for the Pro-Choicers, because they have the advantage of numbers.

So, percentage wise, more of the smart Pro-Lifers quit than the smart Pro-Choicers. If there is a starting percentage on both sides that is equal, the end percentages will have a higher number of idiots on the Pro-Life side than on the Pro-Choice side.

I disagree. I think the pro-choice side has more idiots on its side, because it's easier to blend into debate than if you're pro-life. If you're going to argue the pro-life position, you have to contend with numerous people at once. Every now and again, someone will come in and say "KILLING IS BABIEZ IS RONG!11!1one", but that's not nearly as numerous as people who come in and say, "I'm pro-choice because telling people what to do is wrong." Not by a long shot. I also disagree with the idea that most of the smart people have stopped debating on the pro-life side. I don't think there were many people (dumb or smart) to debate the position.

Well you keep asking me for the exact names of stupid Pro-Lifers, so I can only assume you don't believe in their existence.

I'm asking you to corroborate your claim, or admit that you're just making it to avoid looking like you take a side. You say you're pro-life, and I believe you. But taking sides in the question of abortion isn't exactly the same as taking sides in the literal debate. It's not that the idea of idiot pro-lifers is objectively false, it's that it's practically dishonest. I mean, take any chunk of, say, 50 pgs. on the abortion debate thread now, and just count how many idiot posts you see from either side. I'd bet you'd find more from the pro-choice side than ours. Same deal with either of the other incarnations of that thread. To say we're equally convicted of something one side obviously does more of is what's patently wrong to me.

Oh, so because some Pro-Choicers do it, we should do it? Because some Pro-Choicers use dirty, underhanded methods, we should?

To an extent, yes. But the point is, we shouldn't delude ourselves into some altruistic goal of being the bigger people. Because what winds up happening is, well, what you think has happened: a lot of people just don't debate anymore. I think it's important to remind yourself who you're dealing with from time to time, and that goes beyond this particular debate. You don't owe them anything they wouldn't give you.

On Gaia, there is a much higher percentage of Pro-Choicers who are like that, yes, because their guild is led by people who support it. And there are fewer Pro-Lifers because our guild is led by people who do not. Our guild is led by people who are compassionate, and believe in civilized debate. So the Pro-Choicers of the Pro-Choice guild tend to agree with those tactics, shut up, or come here.

But it's not because Pro-Lifers are less likely to feel that way; I've met plenty of people who either think that way wholeheartedly or are at least like you and think, "Well if they do it, why shouldn't we?"

I know. The problem is, I'm not cynical enough to believe that it's just them who do it. Like I say, if I saw that there's a copious amount of pro-lifers who do it, here or anywhere on the Internet or IRL, I'd soften my
resolve a bit. But that the fact that so many people are even afraid of admitting to being pro-life even in the hypothetical, abstract sense lets me know it's mostly not us who "do it". Meanwhile, pro-choicers in any venue can look around and see other people attacking them, and when questioned, they give the stock answers that you gave, and it's like, they're either lying and doing it because other people are doing it, and/or, they're doing it based on small example and utterly ignore all the examples to the contrary.

If the pro-choicers who "do it" were a small sample, I wouldn't be saying any of this. But the fact that the ones who do it, and those who don't, are pretty much neck-and-neck in terms of numbers and stridency, I'm not wrong.

Again, I can't speak for now, but they did before.

And it's not an equal -number-, I never said there's an equal -number-, only an equal percentage. Since there are a lot more Pro-Choicers, there are a lot more numerically who do that then there are Pro-Lifers.

So, you think 35% of both sides do it, for example? I don't, but I'm just asking.

That's where we disagree. Your average Joe Pro-Choicer is just as unlikely to be like that as your average Joe Pro-Lifer. You just see them as more likely, because you're Pro-Life.

Yes they're worse? O.O