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 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:28 pm
The Book of Revelation
Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work.
John Calvin had grave doubts about its value.
Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams".
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Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:27 pm
Well, I honestly couldn't say that Revelations is not at all biblical. As far as I'm concerned, if Jesus has taught something totally different from what His Father said, I'd call Him a lunatic. For example, Jesus did indeed preach about love and peace, but that was ALSO an Old Testament teaching, believe it or not. Yet, even in the Old Testament, evil was punished, as well as forgiven. Revelations is a book of wrath, to be sure, but also a book of hope. I believe it can be real easy to take only one verse and then take it out of context. We read in Matthew about Jesus telling his disciples to turn the other cheek, and bless and do not curse, yet also, in the same book Jesus preaches about hell, calls woes upon Pharisees and different towns, and punishment for the wicked. He overturns tables, and in John even uses a scourge to do so. There were also Centurion Christians (centurions being Roman soldiers/police). As military, guaranteed they were required to fight and keep the peace when necessary. Revelations could be the concluding wrath of God Jesus talked about, as well as the deliverance of believers.
One thing about Jesus that I believe is important to understand is that He is a warrior, as well as a gentle shepard. You ever play the game Mass Effect? It's an awesome sci-fi video game. The the main character is named Shepard, and depending if you've decided to go down the good path, you are gentle, kind, understanding, forgiving, AS WELL as a kick butt warrior who fights and kills badguys. You could also think of Jedi from Star Wars. Peace loving, peace keeping, but far from pacifistic. They killed Sith and evil men, yet also saved and redeemed some like Darth Vader and Darth Revan. God is a lot the same, I think. God didn't change when Jesus came to Earth. God is the same as always. He WILL punish evil. He will go to war with the wicked. But at the same time, He is also able to forgive, restore, and save the wicked. It's hard to comprehend, and I don't understand lots of it. I have been doubting a lot about God lately. But I do know that should he go to war with the wicked, He'll do it justly. He's done it before.
I recommend really praying about this. I don't believe we can place God in a box of peace or of war. He does what's right in both cases. Kind of like a coin. It's got two sides. God's got many sides. I used to struggle with the idea of hell, because let's face it, that would suck. But the Bible teaches that. I've also struggled with the idea of God forgiving men like rapists and murdereres and such. I've struggled with God completely destroying nations and people, as well as completely forgiving the sins of the people at Ninevah. I've struggled with God forgiving David yet not forgiving Saul for NOT wiping out an entire people. I've struggled with God testing Job, and letting evil happen. Yet God is right. Am I making sense? That's how I feel about revelations. It's got God working in such a way that I cannot comprehend, both forgiving and punishing, destroying and creating, all justly, all with purpose, all with reason. The whole "ruling the nations with an iron rod" wasn't something that was new to Revelations. That's an old testament prophecy. The same Jesus of love also said that the wicked will perish and be destroyed. It's the same God.
On a side note, Thomas Jefferson took TONS out of the Bible because he didn't like all the "mythical" themes and teachings. That's a BIG mistake if you ask me.
Martin Luther was also anti-semetic.
John Calvin had people killed or imprisoned.
I'm not saying that all they did was wrong, but like all of us, we can make mistakes, even when it comes to interpretting the Bible.
Well friend, that's all I have to say. smile Like I said, I recommend just praying about this. I don't believe I gave a 100% accurate explanation, but God knows the answer. Go to Him.
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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:11 pm
Do you agree with these quotes? There are some verses in Revelations that are quoted often. Do you think that these verses are invaded too? I agree with what Hayabashi2 wrote. Prayer is important in this matter. I also think that just because something is hard to understand doesn't make it wrong or false. Jesus would teach a lot of things that His disciples did't understand until his resurrection. Only after Jesus resurrection could they understand things like when He was being arrested Jesus he told them "Don't you realize that I could ask my father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? But if I did, how would the Scripture be fulfilled that describe what must happen now?" This doesn't make any scene until latter because His followers didn't know what scripture Jesus was talking about. It only made scene after Jesus rose from the dead. Then they knew what he was talking about. It happened in the old testament too. with Joseph when he had a dream he didn't make any scene to him when he was in prison but later when he was serving under the king it made scene. So I think that it's that same with Revelation we can't understand it fully now but we will after it happens will get it. Keep praying keep searching
Lil April
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Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:19 am
Lil April BlueHair Do you agree with these quotes? There are some verses in Revelations that are quoted often. Do you think that these verses are invaded too? I agree with what Hayabashi2 wrote. Prayer is important in this matter. I also think that just because something is hard to understand doesn't make it wrong or false. Jesus would teach a lot of things that His disciples did't understand until his resurrection. Only after Jesus resurrection could they understand things like when He was being arrested Jesus he told them "Don't you realize that I could ask my father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? But if I did, how would the Scripture be fulfilled that describe what must happen now?" This doesn't make any scene until latter because His followers didn't know what scripture Jesus was talking about. It only made scene after Jesus rose from the dead. Then they knew what he was talking about. It happened in the old testament too. with Joseph when he had a dream he didn't make any scene to him when he was in prison but later when he was serving under the king it made scene. So I think that it's that same with Revelation we can't understand it fully now but we will after it happens will get it. Keep praying keep searching Lil April . I really like how you worded that, that we won't know till it happens.
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:26 am
thank you Paranormal Zombie
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:45 pm
My husband and I do a lot of research in Christian science and scripture, especially anything dealing with the Apocalypse. We know as well as any other Christian that the book of Revelations is taken the least seriously and ridiculed more than any other book in the Bible. I believe this is mainly because man is afraid of his own end and will not answer to his sins if he can help it. During our studies, we have noticed HUGE discrepancies within the text. There are parts missing, and what parts are there are somewhat jumbled. I don't like how a lot of people find Revelations irrelevant, or even purely metaphorical, though everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
However, I like to keep two quotes from the book in mind when this comes up. The first is the one in my signiture, which is repeated throughout Revelations, and hence why I haven't included a chapter:verse reference. I carry this around in my sig because I believe that even if the end doesn't come in our lifetime, we all need to be aware, and keep our eyes and ears open. "I will come like a thief in the night," Christ said. Whatever shape the world is in, we need to be ready. The second quote is this, Rev. 22:7, "Behold, I come quickly; blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." To sum up my thoughts on this, I'll just say one thing: If taking this book to heart the way it is written is wrong in the ways of our society, then I don't want to be right.
Though my husband and I don't like how much the Bible has been messed with over the centuries, we both agree on one thing: if it's in the Bible, God wants us to see it.
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Eternal_Heavenly_Affinity
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Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:03 pm
I think we can all agree on the fact that God is a loving, gracious and forgiving God. We also know from the Bible that he is also a God of righteousness and justice. He must punish us when we do something wrong (the ultimate punishment being hell for those who don't accept His love and forgiveness). Since Jesus is God, He would as well be all of these things. I believe in the book of revelation just like I believe in all the other books in the Bible.
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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:01 pm
While I agree with Kat, I'm also often left wondering- what about the Catholic books taht are not in the Christian Bibla (i.e. The 'Book of Macabees' SP?), and the Bible iteslf mentions several other texts "the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah" etc, that are nowhere.
On a bit of a side note (as if the above wasn't side-noty enough), I had an old Lutheran teacher who was abjectly CONVINCED that Martin Luther's speeches and writings would one day be included in the Bible... (O_o)
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:43 pm
Frogsnack While I agree with Kat, I'm also often left wondering- what about the Catholic books taht are not in the Christian Bibla (i.e. The 'Book of Macabees' SP?), and the Bible iteslf mentions several other texts "the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah" etc, that are nowhere. On a bit of a side note (as if the above wasn't side-noty enough), I had an old Lutheran teacher who was abjectly CONVINCED that Martin Luther's speeches and writings would one day be included in the Bible... (O_o) You know. I think about that sometimes. I know some of the History about how the bible was sifted a bit and by what leaders etc. But I guess what it all comes down to is this: If there were another 6-10000000006 books, would it really matter? What is it that we need to know? We need to know to love one another as we love ourselves, and to love God with all out hearts, minds and strength. We need to know that Jesus is the Son of God. We need to know that he died for the remission of our sins. We need to know that by the power of the Holy Spirit (God's Power) he rose again, conquering sin, death and the grave (hell). We need to know if we believe in our hearts (without faith we cannot please GOD) and confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord, we are saved. We need to know that through Jesus we are MORE than conquerors, will do even greater things than he if we just follow. We need to know to obtain from things that destroy our bodies and the bodies of others. We need to know that God makes up for our imperfections. If we are IN him, then we are complete, lacking nothing, we appear perfect and Holy to God. Done. If we have that. We are OK. All of that is in the 66 books of the standard bible. All the other stuff is extra good, yet if I only know this, and live this, I need nothing else! But since I DO have these 66 books, I can focus on them. I don't even have all of these perfected yet! (knowing them, living them, sharing them unwaveringly). So why add more? I am not saying there aren't more. But let me deal with what I have for now.
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:37 pm
A question then arises: if books were left out, how do we know they weren't important for salvation?
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:57 pm
beaufleur PewterKat My husband and I do a lot of research in Christian science and scripture, especially anything dealing with the Apocalypse. We know as well as any other Christian that the book of Revelations is taken the least seriously and ridiculed more than any other book in the Bible. I believe this is mainly because man is afraid of his own end and will not answer to his sins if he can help it. During our studies, we have noticed HUGE discrepancies within the text. There are parts missing, and what parts are there are somewhat jumbled. I don't like how a lot of people find Revelations irrelevant, or even purely metaphorical, though everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I like to keep two quotes from the book in mind when this comes up. The first is the one in my signiture, which is repeated throughout Revelations, and hence why I haven't included a chapter:verse reference. I carry this around in my sig because I believe that even if the end doesn't come in our lifetime, we all need to be aware, and keep our eyes and ears open. " I will come like a thief in the night," Christ said. Whatever shape the world is in, we need to be ready. The second quote is this, Rev. 22:7, " Behold, I come quickly; blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book." To sum up my thoughts on this, I'll just say one thing: If taking this book to heart the way it is written is wrong in the ways of our society, then I don't want to be right. Though my husband and I don't like how much the Bible has been messed with over the centuries, we both agree on one thing: if it's in the Bible, God wants us to see it. I do agree Kat, that regardless of how some books made it in .... that we must be meant to see it. We know now that certain things in scripture, like Paul being against women speaking in the church, etc. were only meant for that particular church, because they had a HUGE problem with women shouting down from the top 'woman's' level to their husbands below with things like, 'What does he mean?' and stuff like that. So he advised them, to 'ask your husbands at home!' This was interpreted that women should not have any ministry in the church .... etc. There's a lot of examples of that, and like many of my former pastors have said, it's important to look at the culture and the context of what was going on when it comes to scripture. Some things were only meant for that time period, like people being under bondage over the 2000 some levittical laws in the old testament, that Jesus rolled all into one: love the lord your god with all your heart, and strength, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself. How do we know these things? Can we be sure that these are the meanings of those scriptures? I think I'm understanding a little of what the OP was saying. How do we know for surely that the Bible is a,) completely in tact and b.) some books weren't left out and others that weren't supposed to be in there were put in instead?
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Reply
