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 Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:19 am
Divash is just explaining her interpretation, gentlemen. She is always the first to say that you should consult your own rabbi and come to your own conclusions about things. When she explains what she feels, I don't think she's saying that's how EVERYONE should feel.
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:16 pm
Yes and no, kingpin. What I'm saying is that -- regardless of how I may feel about it personally -- it is a rabbinic law, codified by the Talmudic scholars, that a non-Jew should not observe the Shabbat in the same manner in which a Jew should observe Shabbat.
Now, someone who's born Jewish has the option of not observing some, or all, of the laws. They're still a Jew, unless they begin practicing another religion and repudiate Judaism, then die before repenting of this. But a convert is required to observe every one of the laws, both d'oraita (Torah) and d'rabbanan (Talmud). If they knowingly and habitually transgress, their conversion can be revoked, under the grounds that they clearly did not make a binding commitment to Judaism.
If I'm a born Jew, I can eat all the bacon I want, and I'm still a Jew. I'm a Jew who's sinning, but I'm a Jew.
If I'm a born non-Jew, I can eat all the bacon that I want, and I'm not sinning at all.
If I'm a convert to Judaism, and I eat bacon -- not by honest accident or to keep myself from dying of starvation/hypoglycemia/diabetic ketosis, but on purpose, knowingly -- and it's noticed by other Jews, I can be called back before the Beit Din and have my conversion revoked for it. It can also happen if I, a convert, should make an effort to get a Jew to stop observing Torah and Talmud laws, or make a non-Jew break the laws that bind them (including talking a non-Jew into observing Shabbat as a Jew would observe Shabbat, if that non-Jew is not in the process of conversion and therefore needing to learn how to do it).
What I'm saying here is that while some of us here are safe if we tell Jews and non-Jews things that are contrary to the Torah OR TALMUD law, some of us are not, and we might want to watch ourselves.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:56 pm
Divash What I'm saying here is that while some of us here are safe if we tell Jews and non-Jews things that are contrary to the Torah OR TALMUD law, some of us are not, and we might want to watch ourselves. However, the whole thing is very interpretive. The conversion process should be a labor of love, not a burden to weigh you down. The whole point of Talmud and Torah is to instill self dicipline and self denial as a good thing. It's not just Hedonism at the word go, being Jewish is something people sometimes have to work at. I make it a point to make Judiasm fun and interesting, and I don't just mean on Simchas Torah. I think it's our duty to encourage every convering jew to acknowlege themselves as Jews and not "Jewish Wannabes" It can be fun and exciting and modern and truly an enjoyable experience, and there's nothing like new traditions from the cultural blending of Western Judica. Now, anyone know where I should put the orange on my Seder Plate?
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Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:49 am
LordNeuf Now, anyone know where I should put the orange on my Seder Plate? I have a very unusual seder plate, or rather, seder arrangement. When I place my orange, I put it right on the center plate.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:24 pm
Back onto poor Babel and away from oranges:
I suffered (strangely because I'm born into a Jewish family?!) from something similar. When I announced I wished to be bar mitzvah'd, a little late... my dad kinda went along with it. He was happy I was studying Judaism and bringing it back to the family. However, afterwards everything changed.
I bought tephilin, he confiscated my money to stop me from quote: "wasting it".
I tried to be kosher, he annonuced that I was being fussy and served pork every night.
I tried to keep shabbos, he warned me that I was becoming one of them (chassid)
He kinda blocked me from being observant at every turn. I'm basically okay now, though. And this is the 2 steps to how I did it:
Respect their wishes, like Divash said. The commandments are the CENTRE of everything, follow them at every turn.
Make sure they always know you're serious. They will think it's a phase unless you make them see that this is your choice for life.
And thats it! Really... If your parents are anything like my dad, anyway.
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Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:05 pm
Divash What I'm saying here is that while some of us here are safe if we tell Jews and non-Jews things that are contrary to the Torah OR TALMUD law, some of us are not, and we might want to watch ourselves. Divash my family founded two shouls, and I study on my own and with a Rabbi. My family to be honest has no idea, and would be very surprised to know that. But Talmud is what men wrote, and also one of the 613 laws states, as I have said many times over "None shall add or take from the laws of your lord, your god, your king! To do so is sinful." The Talmud is a book made of a bunch of suggestions, explainations, thoughts, and ideas that is to help out all Jews, and others to be better people and to follow Hashems laws and well as possible. The Kairite Jews believe the same thing, and they are very religious but also flexible and understanding people. They would consider you sinful. And you do know and have realized that each law in Judaism has a counter law, sub law, and so forth to keep things balanced since life is gray. Not black and white. And I am not being controversal to Torah or Talmud law, I'm helping to explain things, and I'm also bringing out the obscure stuff. Obscure stuff is my specialty.
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Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:12 pm
LordNeuf I make it a point to make Judiasm fun and interesting, and I don't just mean on Simchas Torah. I think it's our duty to encourage every convering jew to acknowlege themselves as Jews and not "Jewish Wannabes" Now, anyone know where I should put the orange on my Seder Plate? Simcha Torah. All dancing, and drinking of the wonderful arak, and vodka. I perfer Passover, more fun, and plus getting drunk with fam while singing Echad Ani Yo'deya and all the other songs is always a funny experience. Echad me yo'deya!? ECHAD! Ani yo'deya! Echad ele arak. lol. Why put an orange, put a chicken foot.
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Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:15 pm
Behatzlacha-S Back onto poor Babel and away from oranges: I suffered (strangely because I'm born into a Jewish family?!) from something similar. When I announced I wished to be bar mitzvah'd, a little late... my dad kinda went along with it. He was happy I was studying Judaism and bringing it back to the family. However, afterwards everything changed. I bought tephilin, he confiscated my money to stop me from quote: "wasting it". I tried to be kosher, he annonuced that I was being fussy and served pork every night. I tried to keep shabbos, he warned me that I was becoming one of them (chassid) He kinda blocked me from being observant at every turn. I'm basically okay now, though. And this is the 2 steps to how I did it: Respect their wishes, like Divash said. The commandments are the CENTRE of everything, follow them at every turn. Make sure they always know you're serious. They will think it's a phase unless you make them see that this is your choice for life. And thats it! Really... If your parents are anything like my dad, anyway. Your dad had a very bad experince, and is just hoping that you don't become like those Chassids that is an a*****e, and mean to jews that are not Chassids, and mean to non-jews. You just need to reassure him that will not happen.
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Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:44 am
I have always had good relations with all my Chassidic friends. None of them have EVER shunned non-Jews, or treated non-Chassids as anything but companion Jews. They are all great, fun-loving people.
Lubuvitch, however, I've had problems with in the past. These are long in the past, and involve me being treated as a Gentile and being disallowed to participate on Yom Kippur, which are painful memories. Chassids, though, have always been good to me.
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