Welcome to Gaia! ::

It often helps to keep in mind that what applies to some or even most members of a religion doesn't necessarily apply to all members of that religion.

You make it sound like all pagans act that way. Anyways, who said pagans were tolerant, we are just like any other religion out there. I'm actually offended by that post a little.

Actually, I never said that all pagans act that way. In fact, I'm Pagan myself, so clearly that was not what I said. I said that I'd seen some young Pagans doing it, that it upset me, and that I wanted to vent a bit in a safe space. I said that I was fairly certain that none of the Pagans in this guild would do such a thing, but from the responses I've been getting here, I'm not so sure anymore. It's really astounding me that anyone in the Religious Tolerance Guild would take offense at the idea that people should be tolerant of other religions.

Why should pagans be tolerant? Aside from plain good manners, social harmony, and common sense? If they want others to be tolerant of their beliefs (which is generally what provokes these kinds of attacks), then they must be tolerant of others, of course. You've no right to demand something which you do not give, yourself.



I think you're right, that most Pagans don't say these sorts of things. It's not only on Gaia, though (and not only Pagans for that matter- there seem to be more atheists who badger religious people, but they're not representatives of my community so it doesn't involve me as much); Gaia is not the only place where I have interaction with the wider Pagan community- this is simply the main place where I encounter this sort of attitude these days.^_^' I've been in and among the Pagan community for a good nine years now. I was in the Student Pagan Association of my university, put in my time with religious rights activist groups, was a member of and/or in regular contact with about four covens when I was Wiccan, and have attended most of the major gatherings in my areas each year. Most of the time that I spend online is also with Pagan religious communities- Gaia is rather unusual for me in that it is not specifically a spiritual community, although I am a member of a few Pagan guilds and pop in every now and then on the Morality and Religion subforum. This sort of "pre-emptive attack on the Xtian" comes up in all kinds of places- it seems to be a common problem, and is probably a backlash against the folks who are coming to Pagan religions due to bad experiences in the more mainstream faiths, have felt betrayed by them in one way or another, and want to "get back at" them in some way. It's probably also used as a means of feeling "more Pagan" by showing how much they're not something else, and making themselves feel morally superior to people of other religions by emphasizing how much of a difference there is between themselves and these other people. And it's unfortunate, hence my rant.

I did mention in my original post that the people who were concerning me were specifically young Pagans. It's true that it's not entirely restricted to young folks, but it is a childish attitude, and I think that it is more prevalent with younger people.

Overall, I'm at a loss for what to say here, though. This was certainly not the response that I expected from a religious tolerance guild- this, being offended by an expectation of tolerance when one is asking for it in turn. It's kind of sad, actually. I said that I'd seen some people being rude, that this was not good, and that I wanted to express my frustration in a place where I was pretty sure that the other people also believed in the importance of tolerance and polite disagreement. And I offended people.^_^'

Looks like this guild may not be the best place to do inter-faith bridge building, after all.-_-

It's not that we're opposed to religious tolerance, it's that you were not very clear in your orginal statements. It may be true that you didn't indicate that all pagans act that way, however, you were not as specific as you think you were.

From this sentence, one can assume that you are talking about pagans in general. Furthermore, one can assume that you are talking about a large number of pagans, probably a majority.

Thus when one says such, I am forced to remind them that tolerance is not a requirement of being pagan. The only requirement of being pagan is being of a non-Abrahamic religion; nothing else.


There is no reason anyone should be tolerant of anyother thing other than for personal preference.


I can get the same effect using a "do unto others as they do unto thee" type of atitude. Furthermore, in doing such, I ensure a better chance of making sure that the people I show these behaviors to, are, in fact, deserving of such things.


Not necessarily.


Not necessarily. One may be seen as hypocritical, but that has little to do with anything.


Atheists badgering religious people? GASP! What else have I missed?

What I have noticed is that atheists, at least the learned ones, are apathetic towards those of other religions, and are merely showing when and where they can make their claims. For example, it is completely inappropriate for one to make a religious claim for a phenomena that is easily explained with physical explanations.


Out of curiosity, what kind of coven initiated you into Wicca?


Now, are you sure that this "attack on xtians" is really an attack, or could it be you misinterpreting satire/sarcasm?


Yeah it's called a superiority or persecution complex (depending on which symptoms they exhibit more). Many people have them.


So, you expect us to expect others to have tolerance when said others need not have tolerance?


No, no you didn't offend anyone. Do not mistake our responses that it is not reasonable to expect others to be tolerant as us being offended.


Honestly, I think someone has an overgeneralization problem. I mean, first of all, you expect us to agree with you, and then when we don't by showing you that it is not required of others to be tolerant, you are making claims that we are intolerant. Nice to know your tolerant.

Lastly, I would like to give out a big "So what?" People are intolerant; there is little that anyone can do about that. Intolerance will always be around. It has to be around; otherwise we cannot experience tolerance. We must experience the opposite of a feeling/idea so that we can feel that opposite of the opposite. It is a rule of our realm - kind of like the Newtons law (applied outside of physics) "for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction."

On an interesting side note, who would have thought I would have remembered anything from my physics course?

I expected better from you. Maybe my expectations where too high or maybe you just chose a lesser supportable inference of my closing paragraph.

However, if you read my closing, and take it for what it is, you will notice, that all I am doing is stating a simple fact regarding tolerance. Furthermore, I am attempting to show that an expectation of tolerance on all parts of all societies is absurd.


These examples are irrelevant considering I am not persuading anyone to take apathy in any case. I am merely stating what exists.

I cannot deny that fact that I take some apathy towards the fact of others being intolerant. I view the choice between being tolerant and intolerant one's own decision and as such, I find that it is for them to make, and not for me to make for them.

Furthermore, I hold the philosophy of "let those who want to learn come to you." Meaning that if someone wants to learn something from me, they will seek me out, I find that it is not my job to patrol around giving advice to those who do not ask for it.

Maybe I am rather LeVayen in my approach toteaching (ok, I am very LeVayen in my approach to teaching). But I cannot find a good reason for me to intervene (potentially) unwantedly on another.