|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:54 am
That's the whole point of a lot of the discussions in this guild Eo. It's not just about discussing the mythological aspects, it's about discussing the realism and unrealism about such things as well. The supernatural in general can also come into realism because it has happened and still does.
The vampirism thread in the Catacombs deals with the exact type of discussion. My perception of them is as demons rather than undead, because I go into the realistic aspects of them coupled with the supernatural. I look for the flaws in mythological beliefs and legends, and build on the grounding on the parts that have realism in them.
It goes for the phoenix and various other mythological/legendary beings/beasts. It's not all about discussing what's been said in mythology.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:09 pm
OK, but firstly what you're saying there about a pheonix maybe 'rejuvinating' someone, but not resurrecting them seems a bit irrelivant, as the idea of using pheonix feathers to resurrect people only appears in videogames, not in the original myths (to my knowledge).
Then with the 'life-giving' of the spirit as it departs... why's the spirit departing if it's got a new body to inhabit? (assuming you meant the spirit gives life to a new pheonix)
As I understand it, the terminology of the myths suggest that the new pheonix is the same creature reborn, not a new entity - the idea of it being immortal is that it's not passing on to the afterlife.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:08 pm
Like I said, the whole point of this guild is to explore the depths of fantasy, and also where it has realism and where it doesn't. What you are talking about is the popular myth and belief about the phoenix. What I am saying is, that may or may not be the case so I am discussing other theories behind its existence either as merely a myth or behind the possible reality behind it.
Just because someone once believed it to have a resurrecting ability, that doesn't mean it actually does. Then again it might have that ability.
We look into alternatives and how it might actually work in this guild as much as we appreciate the popular myths.
What I said was, in a nutshell, "maybe it has a rejuvenation ability rather than that of resurrection, and/or perhaps it is able to resurrect when it dies."
Whether the creature itself is reborn when it dies or not isn't relevant in that instance. If it's immortal, then why would it die, turn to ash and revive itself in the first place? If something is immortal than it just...doesn't die at all really from what I understand unless it's actually physically killed.
The other thing I was talking about was a possibility as well. If a phoenix's physical body dies (assuming it really is of the fire element), and it's body turns to ash, people may have associated its resurrection power by having possibly SEEN its spirit rise from its ashes into the afterlife.
This is ALL speculation and not me trying to prove anything, ok?
If someone reads this and believes what I have said to be true and/or chooses to write about the phoenix based on my speculations, so be it. That's what all if this is about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:55 pm
You seem to be going a bit off-topic there Mel - if you refer to the first post, this was intended to be a discussion of the phoenix in terms of the existing myths.
I know you're fond of the idea that everything might exist out there in an alternate reality, but right now I'm not interested in discussing properties attributed to the phoenix by modern computer games. neutral
If you refer to the last sentance of my first post in this topic, you'll see what I think about why the rebirth is necessary for immortality.
Now, back to the point at hand - it seems to me that if we are to conceive of a more mundane explanation for the myth of the phoenix rising from its ashes than 'it's magic', then we should assume that the bird is able to incorporate inflammable elements into its body tissue.
Perhaps then the phoenix could asexually gestate an inflammable egg containing its new body when it is approaching the time of its rebirth. The new body grown within this egg would have to be developed into an early adulthood stage, ready to become occupied when the old body is desroyed.
There is also mention of the phoenix being reborn from a 'worm'; in terms of this 'inflammable egg' theory, we are still in need of a plausible way for the phoenix to transmit its conciousness from its old body into the new one. My thought is that this 'worm' could be a sort of umbilical cord through which the conciousness travels as the old body is burning - necessitating this umbilical cord to also be inflammable, hence it being mentioned as still being there after the phoenix has burnt to ash.
What do folks think of that? Anyone interested in picking-over some of the details?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:08 am
I wasn't going into the computer games side of things specifically. It's used as an example of the other thoughts on it that are out there.
Do remember, this IS my guild and I can add anything into a topic, even if it's not one I have started.
This guild is for anyone interested in the fantasy genre, and any member can give their own stance on a particular topic, including this one. I was giving alternative methods of how the phoenix MIGHT work, and if someone here who is a budding writer like myself intends to write about the creature at any point, then discussing it in all its potential forms with whatever abilities it may or may not have for whatever reason will help them to develop their own version of it that works best for the world they are writing in, whether it be earth or one they've created themselves.
It is not JUST about the myths themselves. It's exploring whether there is grounding to those myths, and looking into both the supernatural and scientific sides of it as to whether its existence is possible if we go by the myths. If not, then we look into how it would be possible. Fantasy should not be defined by something that is nothing but a figment of the human imagination. Many authors explain a lot of things that exist in their worlds as being created from magic, or that magic caused X to happen, or for X to happen to Y. Every discussion topic in this guild will explore the ins and outs of whatever the subject is. I choose to add realism into my work as well as the supernatural. Some prefer to be completely surreal. However, it's not about proving anything, it's about sharing thoughts and ideas to help one another in whatever way that might be...whether it's general interest or for writing. It doesn't matter.
Have you noticed that others seem to have refrained from posting recently. Probably because of this. It's ridiculous, and it'll end now. If it doesn't, I'll lock the topic indefinitely and then nobody will be able to post in it.
I'd like to encourage others to give their own stances now.
Eo, the ideas presented in your last post still stand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:28 pm
DM_Melkhar Get in the vampirism thread Berz! smile
We need more people posting in there. It's basically just me and Hypno.
Responding to a question off-topic isn't so bad occasionally though, so long as we get right back on to it afterwards.
Azriel, the life-giving thing. In the Final Fantasy games, the Phoenix Down item revives KO'ed characters. I'm not saying the phoenix can resurrect those who are dead, exactly, but more a kind of rejuvenation. With the Phoenix Down, most of the time it revives the characters from the KO status, but not by much HP in most cases. Then you need to use potions to raise the HP again. In boss fights, that's a real pain in the bum because the enemy has an uncanny habit of knowing who you've just brought back.
Anyway...in more realistic terms than turn-based battle systems and hit points, the phoenix may be able to rejuvenate if someone is in a bad way so that they've got enough strength to get themselves to a doctor or something, or make them feel a bit stronger to get themselves to somewhere safe if they're weak and would otherwise die. When it comes to literal death and then resurrection, I really don't know. Perhaps if they'd recently died, but not if they'd been dead some time and their spirit has already gone. Restoration, I guess.
The other part made sense though right? As in the phoenix dies, turns to ash and then it's spirit rises from its corporeal ashes. If the bird were to be of the fire element anyway, then that'd make more sense mythically. Perhaps it only has a TRUE resurrection ability when it dies and the spirit rises.
What do you guys think of that point of view? Someone needs to PM Berz about that! rolleyes I see yer point about restoration Mel, very good. 3nodding And yes, the other part did make sense. I think... he-he sweatdrop That thing about the egg within the body that Eoforgar said is quite intriguing. I wasn't able to post but it wasn't cuz of the debate. Just FYI...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
