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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:01 pm
I don't think I understood that until I looked at my own heritage, but Night did give me insight. It just boils down to fear and the political and social climate of any given point in history.
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:14 pm
It's interesting. Since I was a kid I wanted to truly understand why people do those things. Maybe I'm somewhat naive, I don't know. Now I'm a young adult; I've been reading and researching a lot about it. I visited the camps. I tried as much as possible to find out all the details about my own heritage. And I can say without hesitation, that I don't understand anything at all. I can picture it, sure. I can tell myself, "this and that happened because of this and that", but it's not enough for me. I tried understanding it - through history, through psychology, through sociology. I don't get it. Sure, I can make a list of given circumstances, and say, well, those things lead to it. But on the personal level, when you imagine it in action, I can not see how you make people capable of such actions. It happened. I know it has. I only have the how's, not the why's.
Maybe I should borrow Night tomorrow. Who knows, right?
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:55 pm
Bloodless Amber Kiashana It's so sad that we keep losing Holocaust survivors. For most of us, our children will never meet a Holocaust survivor in person. For me at least, this was a staple of the Yom Ha'Shoah program at my JDS. Doesn't that seem a little scary, that the next generation will be learning about the Holocaust only second hand? It's very scary. Matter of fact, it freaks me out so much sometimes I consider throwing all I've planned aside and become an educator to make sure kids won't forget it. I know that if, or when, the day comes when a child says "stop telling me about it, I don't care and it doesn't evolve me. I don't want to hear about it anymore" - really would be one of the most disappointing days of my life. I've always been close to this issue, I've always cared much about it and I can't imagine what it would be like when it becomes "not relevant". Our memory tends to focus on latest events; it's very easy to forget about it and say there are more urgent issues to deal with. So that's how history becomes just a myth - in 100 years, when the survivors are long gone, and their children are gone, and we are gone, and the old camps will be all decayed, and there would be no one alive to even remember a survivor - people would care less. And as time goes by, past events get less and less important. Who of us can really feel some of what we feel on Yom HaShoa on Ab 9th, for example? Ab 9th is, of course, not as worse - yet it was a terrible tragedy that has changed everything in the Jewish world completely; but Ab 9th is 'old news' - and I'm afraid that one day, so will the Holocaust be. It is terrible, it must not happen - but I know for sure we can't change that fact. I do think we should, and must, work on documenting every piece of evidence and making sure that other generations will see it. I like the concept of the new museum of Yad VaShem, where the story is told mostly by video shots of survivors telling their own story. Numbers lack meaning - seeing a person that tells you about him and his family is a completely different experience than listening to flat facts. It makes it more alive and vivid - and that's something we should encourage. I do not think people in 100 or 200 years will care about the Holocaust as much as we do; we must make sure it'll take a hell lot of time until they see it as "none of their business". what will happen is worse than that. poeple will eventually not only regard it as trivial, but even go as far as to deny its existance.
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 6:02 pm
i dont know if anybody else realized this, but the holocaust was nothing new. massacres of the jewish poeple have been occurring approximately every 400 years after the destruction of the second beis hamikdash. just to name a few, the spanish inquisition, the 2nd crusade, the 1st crusade the formation of the cathoilic church, and the period after the destruction of the 2ng beis hamikdash. (for those of you who have it, open up a copy of tish a ba'av prayers with english translation. you see what i mean).
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Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 5:55 am
ZonkotheSane what will happen is worse than that. poeple will eventually not only regard it as trivial, but even go as far as to deny its existance. I'm afraid it already is happening - luckily, the laws in most modern countries forbid it. You know - I'm not sure what scares me more. If people believe it hasn't happened, it is very, very bad - but if they know it has, yet claim they don't give a rat's a**, we have a major problem here. I don't know if claiming it has never happened will become something most people agree about. It's very possible, people will claim the numbers are not right; but the fact there was systematic murder of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and so-called "a-socials", is documented not only by survivors but also by the Germans. I think it would take more than just a few hundreds if any, for this claim to be legitimate. I mean, I don't see many crusades deniers. About your second post - no, of course it wasn't the first time. Hey, the pogroms were there all along, around Russia, Ukraine, Poland - they were just minor incidents in comparison to what you've mentioned. But it was different, I think, because at that time, you could have been saved. It was "convert and live or die as a Jew", right? But during the Holocaust, it was completely different; you could have been born and educated as a Christian, but it's enough that two of your grandfathers (I think it was two?) was Jewish - you have no way to escape the situation. They didn't care about religion really anymore - you could convert to Christianity and it wouldn't matter. I mean, there were churches in Warsaw Ghetto, for example, because many "Christian-Jews" were also imprisoned. I think it is different, because it wasn't as systematic, because there were ways to escape, because the numbers were lower - maybe I'm just saying this because it's closer to me. That's also possible, and if that's the case, I'm doing what I'm afraid others will be doing 100 years from now (or more, hopefully). I talk too much. eek
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:22 pm
This topic insipired me. For my school's newspaper, which I'm a writer of, I'm doing an editorial about Weisenthal, the significance of his death, and how we need his example to fight not only anti-Semitism, but racial and religious prejudice in all forms in this day and age. If someone could give me a link to a full bio of his, it would be much appreciated.
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Bloodless Amber ZonkotheSane what will happen is worse than that. poeple will eventually not only regard it as trivial, but even go as far as to deny its existance. I'm afraid it already is happening - luckily, the laws in most modern countries forbid it. You know - I'm not sure what scares me more. If people believe it hasn't happened, it is very, very bad - but if they know it has, yet claim they don't give a rat's a**, we have a major problem here. I don't know if claiming it has never happened will become something most people agree about. It's very possible, people will claim the numbers are not right; but the fact there was systematic murder of Jews, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals and so-called "a-socials", is documented not only by survivors but also by the Germans. I think it would take more than just a few hundreds if any, for this claim to be legitimate. I mean, I don't see many crusades deniers. About your second post - no, of course it wasn't the first time. Hey, the pogroms were there all along, around Russia, Ukraine, Poland - they were just minor incidents in comparison to what you've mentioned. But it was different, I think, because at that time, you could have been saved. It was "convert and live or die as a Jew", right? But during the Holocaust, it was completely different; you could have been born and educated as a Christian, but it's enough that two of your grandfathers (I think it was two?) was Jewish - you have no way to escape the situation. They didn't care about religion really anymore - you could convert to Christianity and it wouldn't matter. I mean, there were churches in Warsaw Ghetto, for example, because many "Christian-Jews" were also imprisoned. I think it is different, because it wasn't as systematic, because there were ways to escape, because the numbers were lower - maybe I'm just saying this because it's closer to me. That's also possible, and if that's the case, I'm doing what I'm afraid others will be doing 100 years from now (or more, hopefully). I talk too much. eek not at all. about the crusades, they have already forgotten (for the most part) our role in it.
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:21 am
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:25 am
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:45 pm
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:02 pm
"The work yet to be done is enormous. Germany's war criminal files contain more than 90,000 names, most of them of people who have never been tried. Thousands of former Nazis, not named in any files, are also known to be at large, often in positions of prominence, throughout Germany. Aside from the cases themselves, there is the tremendous task of persuading authorities and the public that the Nazi Holocaust was massive and pervasive. In the final paragraph of his memoirs, he quotes what an SS corporal told him in 1944: "You would tell the truth [about the death camps] to the people in America. That's right. And you know what would happen, Wiesenthal? They wouldn't believe you. They'd say you were mad. Might even put you into an asylum. How can anyone believe this terrible business - unless he has lived through it?""
this is a qoute from the biography provided by bloodless amber.
this is why there always needs to be a simon weisenthal in this world.
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