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 Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:41 am
Fantasy to me is the best and most potentially creative genre out there. You can go in SOO many directions, but my question is...why do so many people, when writing fantasy, fall into the horrible horrible cliches of elves being perfect beings, there being a hero who has to fight a "dark lord", and fragile little princesses who are too stupid to escape themselves (although its usually very easy) and need some hero idiot to come save them? its so annoying, aand they can't be UNAVOIDABLE can they?
ive read some very good and original fantasy stories, but most fit the cliche and make me want to barf!
anyone else feel this way? and if you know some really good and ORIGINAL fantasy please tell me!
(and btw, im not only talking about books, i also mean user submitted stories on sites like fanfiction and testriffic)
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Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:11 pm
People are textual sponges; we absorb what we read and write what we know.
Unfortunately people write what they know about stereotypes a lot, but you have to also understand that literature (especially in relation to the fantasy genre) spawned from folklore and fairy tale, an oral tradition that re-used such stereotypes in different stories.
Witches wear black and are evil traditionally because it has been passed on so much that it becomes tradition! Elves and nymphs, look up the meaning in dictionaries and you will get a definition about what the "idea" of the being conceived is....if an author wanted to steer clear of such a stereotype they would be better to change the name entirely.
But sometimes traditional themes work, look at Lord of the Rings and the Thomas Covenant series; both center around the power of "one ring", both use stereotypes about elves and giants etc but both are equally enjoyable but have typical fantasy themes
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:26 pm
Well its one thing to use folklore and traditional things like you mentioned (witches wear black, etc.) but its anothing thing to use the same thing over and over again (such as elves being perfect and immortal) and not adding a twist to it or anything.
Take Eragon for example...Its such a cliche because it basically takes the story from Star Wars and puts it in a Middle Earth type world. Elves are perfect and immortal with super powers, there is a farm boy who discovers something important and groundbreaking and gets some old guy to become his mentor. Then he has to go fight the evil empire and the purely evil king with absolutely no good in his heart and blah blah blah...pure cliche, and as far as im concerned, as close as you can get to plagiarism as possible without it actually being plagiarism
We should take inspiration from the already set cliches, but add some sort of twist, or at least explain why something is the way it is, make some sort of original story behind it.
for example: i'm writing a story in which the elves' features are controled by what they feel. Greed, jealousy, dark thoughts in general darken the elf in question (hair, skin, and eyes change color). Of course, elves are extremely proud creatures, so very few are perfect, and instead of having pure white hair, skin, eyes, etc., they have blondish hair, pale but not completely white complexion, and so on.
(granted, i have no idea if this idea has already been taken, but as far as my research has gone, its fairly original).
of course, i take the cliche of elves being near perfect beings and white being the color of purity, and adding a twist to it... thats what should happen to most things in the newer fantasy genres. If i wanted to read about perfect elves and dark lords and such, I'd pick up LOTR, which happens to be right next to me on my bookshelf smile .
make sense?
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:29 pm
TheEscapist58 Well its one thing to use folklore and traditional things like you mentioned (witches wear black, etc.) but its anothing thing to use the same thing over and over again (such as elves being perfect and immortal) and not adding a twist to it or anything. Take Eragon for example...Its such a cliche because it basically takes the story from Star Wars and puts it in a Middle Earth type world. Elves are perfect and immortal with super powers, there is a farm boy who discovers something important and groundbreaking and gets some old guy to become his mentor. Then he has to go fight the evil empire and the purely evil king with absolutely no good in his heart and blah blah blah...pure cliche, and as far as im concerned, as close as you can get to plagiarism as possible without it actually being plagiarism We should take inspiration from the already set cliches, but add some sort of twist, or at least explain why something is the way it is, make some sort of original story behind it. for example: i'm writing a story in which the elves' features are controled by what they feel. Greed, jealousy, dark thoughts in general darken the elf in question (hair, skin, and eyes change color). Of course, elves are extremely proud creatures, so very few are perfect, and instead of having pure white hair, skin, eyes, etc., they have blondish hair, pale but not completely white complexion, and so on. (granted, i have no idea if this idea has already been taken, but as far as my research has gone, its fairly original). of course, i take the cliche of elves being near perfect beings and white being the color of purity, and adding a twist to it... thats what should happen to most things in the newer fantasy genres. If i wanted to read about perfect elves and dark lords and such, I'd pick up LOTR, which happens to be right next to me on my bookshelf smile . make sense? hahah I have never read the Eragon (was it a series??) but from your description I think I might steer clear from it! I am a fan of originality when it comes to more modern authors too, I like the classics and even the "stereotyped" themes but as you say its rare to find a book these days that works it well without it simply being cliche and over-bearing. there is nothing more hideous than predictability when you are reading!!!
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:39 am
very true lol...very true
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:06 pm
Lyramel wrote: Quote: there is nothing more hideous than predictability when you are reading!!! Unless of course the predictability is there to be misleading or is used as a plot device which makes playful fun of itself. I think as long as an author knows he/she is using a cliche and turns it around to make the reader see something different and acknowleges the idea is overused, the triteness doesn't bug as much.
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:42 pm
It is a shame to see the stereotypes come up so often. I've read a bit of R. A. Salvatore's works, and while he does use the stereotypes, the Icewind Dale series, and the others that fall in line behind it, follow a twist on the elven characteristics. I found it to be strange at first, but I found myself enjoying the entire series. I do recommend starting with The Dark Elf trilogy so you can understand what's going on.
As a complete aside from Salvatore, I've been playing with an idea for half-elves that do not have human heritage. It's still sketchy right now, but once I get the kinks worked out of it, who knows?
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:43 am
If you want a book that doesn't use any stereotypes, look at Artemis Fowl, which i think almost everyone here has read anyway. I mean- farting dwarves, elves with super technology that makes humans look like they are still in the stone age knocking bits of rock together.
And Eragon and Eldest (the Inheritance Cycle, new book Brisingr coming soon...) aren't that bad, but if you've read a lot of books like LOTR, then you'll probably think that it's a rip-off JRR Tolkien or something.
Personally i can't stand JRR Tolkien books (but i haven't read LOTR yet, only i've started the Children of Hurin, and i can't bring myself to finish the Hobbit):
1) Because everything in them are stereotyped so badly that it becomes basically: Wizards: wave their wands and fireworks shoot out, Dragons: live in mountains being evil and guarding their gold in their caves, Dwarves: little men with beards, Elves: merry and dancing around, perfect, singing songs, etc. Even the Hobbits are just small men with hairy toes who live in holes that are like houses.
2) Because they are so damn predictable that i don't even need to read the first two sentences of every chapter to know what happens in that bit.
3) Because he uses a huge long 10-page description at the start of every book, which reads like watching paint dry: nothing very exciting happens, just drags on for ages being boring.
4) Because he always describes things that aren't necessary, like he's describing how the rock curves in, then out again in a jagged pattern at a bend in the mountain, when he's supposed to be saying what the people are doing.
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:46 am
Eh . . . I understand how you feel about the stereotypes in LOTR, but I think it seems that way because most authors in the post-LOTR days have copied a good portion of J.R.R's ideas and turned them into the stereotypes we all despise so much now. I could be wrong though; I'm not well versed in a sizeable selection of the genre, so you might be right in calling J.R.R out on the cliches. If I come across anything else, I'll let you know.
You also have to remember that when those books were written entertainment was a bit more limited. The (horribly) long descriptions and details that make modern readers want to beat themselves to death with the books were probably welcome among the audience of yesteryear because they provided the visuals that weren't available in theatres and T.V.
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Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:00 pm
just remember, elves can be evil just as easily as they can be pure and good, my Darkangel story is based on this, an angel falls in love and thinks he is doing something good, but actually isn't, i tend to play off that concept a lot, it makes for interesting stuff 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:16 am
That is an interesting notion/plotpoint. Was there any particular inspiration for it, or was the idea spontaneous?
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:06 pm
Liani Vine If you want a book that doesn't use any stereotypes, look at Artemis Fowl, which i think almost everyone here has read anyway. I mean- farting dwarves, elves with super technology that makes humans look like they are still in the stone age knocking bits of rock together. And Eragon and Eldest (the Inheritance Cycle, new book Brisingr coming soon...) aren't that bad, but if you've read a lot of books like LOTR, then you'll probably think that it's a rip-off JRR Tolkien or something. Personally i can't stand JRR Tolkien books (but i haven't read LOTR yet, only i've started the Children of Hurin, and i can't bring myself to finish the Hobbit): 1) Because everything in them are stereotyped so badly that it becomes basically: Wizards: wave their wands and fireworks shoot out, Dragons: live in mountains being evil and guarding their gold in their caves, Dwarves: little men with beards, Elves: merry and dancing around, perfect, singing songs, etc. Even the Hobbits are just small men with hairy toes who live in holes that are like houses. 2) Because they are so damn predictable that i don't even need to read the first two sentences of every chapter to know what happens in that bit. 3) Because he uses a huge long 10-page description at the start of every book, which reads like watching paint dry: nothing very exciting happens, just drags on for ages being boring. 4) Because he always describes things that aren't necessary, like he's describing how the rock curves in, then out again in a jagged pattern at a bend in the mountain, when he's supposed to be saying what the people are doing. haha lol..i LOVE artemis fowl...partly because its so original like that! lol..i love the series its amazing the reason JRR tolkien seems so cliche is because he basically made the cliche...he was the first one to make a story like that and thats why its so well loved! eragon on the other hand, is recent, and although not too bad, it really is starwars in middle earth lol
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:00 am
Liani Vine wrote: Quote: If you want a book that doesn't use any stereotypes, look at Artemis Fowl, which i think almost everyone here has read anyway. I mean- farting dwarves, elves with super technology that makes humans look like they are still in the stone age knocking bits of rock together. TheEscapist58 wrote: Quote: haha lol..i LOVE artemis fowl...partly because its so original like that! lol..i love the series its amazing Well,that goes one of my recomandations[sp?] sweatdrop I adore the Artemis Fowl series and I love people agree with me,GO ARTY! xd I also recommand [sp?] 'The secret of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel' series.It has the princess trapped by baddy idea,except the 'Princess' is actually a Sorceress and the 'Baddy' is scared of her.She actually escapes where she is being held,except she finds out she is trapped on Alcatraz.The 'Hero' is hated by the two children he's helping,there's a Vampire who's a vegetarian,a Witch with no eyes,(She has mirrors for eyes).The Sorceress is much stronger than the 'Hero',who is an Alchemist.He is not actually a 'Hero',just a kind of teacher for the two children,who are twins and are supposedly vital for saving the world from the Dark Elders.The best warriors in it are girls,the Sorceress and Alchemist are,obviously,married,they both are growing old as the havn't renewed the Immortality potion as the 'Baddy',who is a Magician,stole the book that gives them the recipe,which changes every month. That's what I call a long summary sweatdrop
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