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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:24 pm
Sonnet 73 Shakespeare
That time of year thou mayst in me behold When yellow leaves, or none, or few do hang Upon those boughs which shake against the cold Bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang. In me thou seest the twilight of such day As after sunset fadeth in the west, Which by and by black night doth steal away, Death's second self, which seals up all in rest. In me thou seest the glowing of such fire That on the ashes of his youth doth lie, As the deathbed whereon it must expire, Consumed with that which it was nourished by. This thou perceiv'st, which makes thy love more strong, To love that well which thou must leave ere long.
Question to begin: Without getting into too much detail, what is this poem roughly about?
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:25 pm
See, this is how I get confused by Shakespeare. Macbeth is an amazing play and i've both read and seen it multiple times, but the sonnets confuse me.
"That time of year... sweet birds sang." It's quite obvious he;s talking about Autumn. But then, he begins to speak of deathbeds and love, and I become quite confused. I'm not a total moron, and at the same time i'm not a genius. I suppose I am more interested in the flow of poetry, than the meaning in it smile
Shot out of the dark: Correct me if i'm wrong (seeing as that's how I learn best), but he seems to be comparing Autumn, the death of summer and begin of cold and dark, to the life of a living, loving person. Autumn is beautiful and thrilling; as is human life, but all too soon comes winter (death) and it is snapped away.
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[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:56 pm
[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] See, this is how I get confused by Shakespeare. Macbeth is an amazing play and i've both read and seen it multiple times, but the sonnets confuse me. "That time of year... sweet birds sang." It's quite obvious he;s talking about Autumn. But then, he begins to speak of deathbeds and love, and I become quite confused. I'm not a total moron, and at the same time i'm not a genius. I suppose I am more interested in the flow of poetry, than the meaning in it smile Shot out of the dark: Correct me if i'm wrong (seeing as that's how I learn best), but he seems to be comparing Autumn, the death of summer and begin of cold and dark, to the life of a living, loving person. Autumn is beautiful and thrilling; as is human life, but all too soon comes winter (death) and it is snapped away. This is a good start. All I was aiming for is "it's about death," but you've brought up good points. The trick is to turn any point you think might be contentious into a question. For example, just ask: "What season is this we're in?" "What are the images he's using exactly and how do they relate?" (That second question ends up splitting up the poem in 4 parts, three stanzas each with an image and the final couplet). We're not quite in Autumn, I don't think, not in this poem.
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Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:12 pm
I'll just show you why I thought Autumn, by translating it into how my mind perceives the words.
That time of year thou mayst in me behold When yellow leaves, or none, or few do hang Upon those boughs which shake against the cold Bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang.
That time of year, which I behold to see The leaves which are barely on limbs, in yellowed tones, hanging from the branches which shake in the cold air, vacant now as the birds which once sang, have gone.
Not quite as poetic as Shakespeare's writing, and perhaps making not quite as much sense if you explained it differently, but it's pretty much saying to me, "I see that it's the time of year where there are no birds and few leaves left, if any at all." It must be Autumn. (in my mind)
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[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 am
[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] I'll just show you why I thought Autumn, by translating it into how my mind perceives the words. That time of year thou mayst in me behold When yellow leaves, or none, or few do hang Upon those boughs which shake against the cold Bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang. That time of year, which I behold to see The leaves which are barely on limbs, in yellowed tones, hanging from the branches which shake in the cold air, vacant now as the birds which once sang, have gone. Not quite as poetic as Shakespeare's writing, and perhaps making not quite as much sense if you explained it differently, but it's pretty much saying to me, "I see that it's the time of year where there are no birds and few leaves left, if any at all." It must be Autumn. (in my mind) Again - this is really good, you did the exact right thing. And you're right, Autumn's involved here, but as you've implied, it's Autumn just about to turn Winter -- I'm not saying that to be nitpicky, but rather to make clear that summer's got nothing to do with this poem. The timing is really the key to this whole poem. Take note of "none, or few" - it should be "few, or none," but the inversion is there like as if the speaker is stopping himself: he skipped to "none" too soon. He became aware of his own mortality too soon. You can set up the other stanzas just by seeing exactly what's going on in the first stanza. There's an internal speaker, saying to some other dude that he (the other dude) is sensitive to the fact the speaker is confronting death in everything he does. In this first stanza, he has a time of year within him (Autumn approaching Winter), and it makes him think of an image, of a tree with few leaves where birds used to sing. What is the image in the second stanza (the next four lines)? You can render that in plain old English, I think that's a good idea.
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:48 am
In me thou seest the twilight of such day As after sunset fadeth in the west, Which by and by black night doth steal away, Death's second self, which seals up all in rest. You can only see a dim light in me After the sun sets to the west, which is soon put out by blackest night the image of death covers everything else. In my mind and my reasoning, this seems to be saying, "Help, my soul is fading, the image of death is stealing quickly into it." P.S. Have you seen my thread?
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[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:16 pm
[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] In me thou seest the twilight of such day As after sunset fadeth in the west, Which by and by black night doth steal away, Death's second self, which seals up all in rest. You can only see a dim light in me After the sun sets to the west, which is soon put out by blackest night the image of death covers everything else. In my mind and my reasoning, this seems to be saying, "Help, my soul is fading, the image of death is stealing quickly into it." P.S. Have you seen my thread? Excellent! You're getting the hang of this already. "The image of death is stealing into it" is the key here - death has the agency, not the light. OK - so let's sum up so far. In the first stanza, we had the speaker thinking of himself as a tree, but a tree is affected really badly by the time of year within the speaker. Being a tree isn't about being a giant dead hunk in the middle of the ground. It's about being at rest, being beautiful, and able to provide for many to express themselves (birds singing). "Being at rest" and yet able to provide hints strongly that what our speaker is thinking about in the first stanza is his intellectual legacy. Trouble is, his intellectual legacy depends on him being there for others - he's not going to be there any more. This second stanza, on the other hand, is the literal image of twilight fading out slowly. Again, light = intellect, but the key is that he's given up on a legacy. It just looks like, in those first two lines of this stanza, that he wants to go with grace. That's not being allowed him, though. Death is creeping up on him and eating him up; it is affecting his thought more than he would like. So with that in mind, the third stanza somehow resolves the problem of finding the right image, of finding why exactly the audience loves the speaker and where the speaker can take pride in himself.
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:04 pm
Jesus, you're smart. I envy you a bit.
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[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:16 pm
[ Boogie] [ Oogie] [ Man] Jesus, you're smart. I envy you a bit. It's just being familiar with some literature. After reading about 10 poems in this way, certain things repeat - light is always clarity or knowledge, Autumn is the time one reflects before death, blah blah. It's really a learned skill. But anyway, how the third stanza about the "fire" resolves the question of death in the speaker's mind is my concern now.
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Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:43 pm
I definitely saw this poem in an AP English exam preparation book.
I'm not very good at analyzing poems stanza by stanza, but I had always interpreted this poem as the process of aging. The metaphors of late autumn and bare trees signal a point in time near death (winter?).
I never linked the poem to intellectual capabilities, but that is an interesting interpretation. I definitely see the connection.
The fire part always confused me though. Since it was described as a "glowing" fire, a fire placed on ashes, I figured the fire was dying/fading. I'm not sure if the fire represented vivacity (or intellect) that the narrator once possessed and is now dissipating with age or what, but it seems that the narrator is speaking to his lover, and he finds comfort in knowing that, despite his impending death and decaying capabilities, she still loves him.
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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:52 am
Shattered_Life I definitely saw this poem in an AP English exam preparation book. I'm not very good at analyzing poems stanza by stanza, but I had always interpreted this poem as the process of aging. The metaphors of late autumn and bare trees signal a point in time near death (winter?). I never linked the poem to intellectual capabilities, but that is an interesting interpretation. I definitely see the connection. The fire part always confused me though. Since it was described as a "glowing" fire, a fire placed on ashes, I figured the fire was dying/fading. I'm not sure if the fire represented vivacity (or intellect) that the narrator once possessed and is now dissipating with age or what, but it seems that the narrator is speaking to his lover, and he finds comfort in knowing that, despite his impending death and decaying capabilities, she still loves him. If you need my full commentary on this poem and the method for going through it, use this.What's happened the first and second stanzas is that the speaker has tried to reconcile himself to death through images. The images speak to the "intellect," i.e. the soul after the body dies. But the intellect fails both times, first to provide anything good for others, second in terms of keeping him sane while he approaches death. The fire image is probably NOT intellectual. It's spirit, pure and simple, I think. He used up his youth well, and in using up his youth well "burnt himself out," so to speak. He's dying because he was so great a fire. This last image is what appeals to the internal audience of the poem. One has to wonder about that audience's conception of love, and whether it is a good one or not.
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