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Before You Ask About Mary-Sue...

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oh pockets

Dapper Fatcat

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:19 am


THE MARY-SUE STICKY

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Introduction: As you probably already know, the term Mary-Sue has brought on a lot of controversy in the Gaia forums and in general. Basically, the Mary-Sue is a character archetype / series of "perfect" traits that can be deemed "cliche" (whatever your impression of the word is).

Due to much prejudice against the Mary-Sue character, many writers worry that their character is Mary-Sue and seek others opinions. And that, dear PYPians, is why we are here.

1: How I Fell In Love With Mary-Sue

This link leads to a thread that properly explains the Mary-Sue's features, (so you can see if your character is Mary-Sue) and its purpose in a variety of different writing genres and styles. Please, please read this before you post asking us if your character is Mary-Sue. A sub-forum filled entirely with Mary-Sue threads that could be solved by some light reading is somewhat irritating.

Now, if the last link didn't deter you...

2: The Universal Mary-Sue Litmus Test

This is really just a lot of questions that you can answer about your character. The score will add up at the bottom where you can compare it with the scale they supply to see if your character is Mary-Sue.
Warning Note: Many argue that the Mary-Sue Test is heavily biased and it is known that when used with proper writing skill a Mary-Sue can very easily be loved. Due to the test relying on character traits only and some questions being unspecific, some freakishly high scores can occur, when really, your character isn't Mary-Sue at all. Plus, I got a LOT of complaints. xD


Seriously.
I took this test by using myself instead of a character and scored 79.
Which in other words, means, "KILL IT DEAD WITH FIRE!!!!"
And I'm human.

So why is it here?
Because even if its useless, its worth knowing about. Even if you want to use the questions as a gigantic list of supposed Mary-Sue Traits for a parody, defining characters, etc.
It does have its uses.

PLEASE NOTE:
This is not a last result sort of thing. I'm hoping to get more links.

Last Notes:

If these links didn't help you in deciphering your problems over Mary-Sue worries, etc, then yes, please post your problem wherever you like, making sure to notify others in the thread that yes, you did read the sticky. We would be more than glad to help.




PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:33 pm


The problem with the MSLitmus is it is based COMPLETELY on shallow/physical traits. Therefore, it should be completely disregarded, in my opinion, as a helpful whatchamacallit towards discovering Mary-Sues.

Agree? Disagree? Think I should be pelted with full soda cans?


I accidentally dropped a full Pepsi can on my best friend's puppy's head...

Lt Oblivious


theyrenotgonnagetus

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:24 am


The MS litmus test assumes you have a Sue based on certain traits, but it's not a trait that makes a Sue, it's how the trait is used.

Take for instance, the Tragic Past. If your character has a tragic past, does he or she angst about it regularly? Is it used to make the character more appealing or attractive without actually pushing the plot? Is it not thought out or unique, i.e. a generic "parents dead/abused/arranged marriage" woe?

No? Then do we have a Sue? In my opinion, no.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:33 pm


Mindscrew Min-Min
The MS litmus test assumes you have a Sue based on certain traits, but it's not a trait that makes a Sue, it's how the trait is used.

Take for instance, the Tragic Past. If your character has a tragic past, does he or she angst about it regularly? Is it used to make the character more appealing or attractive without actually pushing the plot? Is it not thought out or unique, i.e. a generic "parents dead/abused/arranged marriage" woe?

No? Then do we have a Sue? In my opinion, no.

Precisely! Therefore, I don't think that should be up there. But that's just me, and you can ignore me if you want to, Pockets.

Lt Oblivious


oh pockets

Dapper Fatcat

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:48 am


Myeah.

I agree that the test is pointless and biased.
But its worth giving to others so they can develop their own opinion on the test.
Not just ours.

It might help someone one of these days.
Or can be referred to as a giant list of generic traits.
-Shrug-

I can remove it though. But I thought it might be worth it for someone.
I mean, it can't be all bad, right? @__@
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:16 pm


The Mary Sue test is useful, but not the be all and end all of Sue evaluation. The scoring is a too strict methinks. I would say it would be possible to score a 40 and still have a decent character. And it seems to miss a lot of Gary Stu attributes (ie works better for females) so results for male characters are not as accurate.

I think it should break the scores down as [number] -> [relative probability of suification].

saint_savin


Nefas Fatum

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:24 pm


Oh look.. you guys already whined about that test. Saves me doing it smile It turns out that the moment you write anything supernatural, your characters are automatically classified as Mary Sue even when they aren't.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:22 pm


Well the litmus test as well as the term Mary-Sue are really meant for fanfiction not original fiction.

There have actually been a couple of great discussion of the application and importance/unimportance of "Mary-Sue" in the WF. One person stated quite aptly that labelling something a mary-sue is actually just a way to avoid giving an actual critique of a character.

And I just used actually way too much but meh.

Del Amor


saint_savin

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:04 pm


When in doubt, have your editor look at your profile of the character (which you should have, damnit).

Your editor will not lie to you. Your editor loves you. Your editor knows what he or she is doing.

*back to trying to un-sueify Mlle. Side Character*

Mary Sue CAN be a good evaluative topic IF someone goes more into detail about it. Who here wants to discuss Nia from Gurren Lagann? XD
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:39 pm


All hail the mighty editors biggrin

Nefas Fatum


saint_savin

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:28 am


I think what makes a Sue- what REALLY makes a Sue -is a lack of thought on the part of the offer. Just as "This is a Mary Sue" should be a talking point in review, but not the entirety of the review, the Sueiest caracter who ever Sued can come off as a decent person in the hands of an attentive author.

If only more authors were attentive! And passed as far as inflicting their personal fantasies on their readers.

That said? Some things harder to unsue than others.

Say, you try to unsue your magically beautiful lead by having he or she persecuted for their beauty. Yaaaaaaaaawn. You just made things worse.

But! Say you have an unnaturally smart foofy magical girl. Her attention to detail and love of learning, while a benefit to her also causes her to be absurdly slow in discerning The Big Picture and makes her easily distracted by SHINY KNOWLEDGE. That's probably better, depending on where you're going with it.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:00 pm


I love this essay. I've read it two or three times now.
Everyone should read it ^____^

TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE: 150 YEARS OF MARY SUE
by Pat Pflieger

Roslind


Lady Sedia Auvryarn

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:54 am


While I normally don't actively prompt my own work, whenever I see the Mary Sue Test I always offer up my essay on it: The Original ANTI Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test

Syera (created of the test) and I have spoken about her test and she has since updated it (although I still need to update my essay). I said the same thing about how when I took it as myself I got the highest score rating possible razz She is very caring about Mary Sue's, just goes about them a different way than others smile

Also here are some other interesting essay's on the subject:
Your 'OC' is a Mary Sue
Mary-Sueism - An Editorial
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:35 am


Wow on the original character part of the quiz I only got one Mary-Sue (plot point). Even though it's more of a Gary-Stu xD

DesertRoseFallen
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