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 Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:03 pm
I know I haven't been around much lately ( sweatdrop ), but I've got a problem that I'd like a little help on if any of you are willing. I'm having a terminal disagreement with my fiance about the characterization in one of my fanfics. Where he had previously been interested, and partway into the story, he stopped reading due to what he felt was a nonsensical decision on the part of one of the fic's four main characters. It's been a while since he's seen the series, and he's only seen it once, but he usually gets a pretty good feel for characters the first time around.
Background: The story is set 6 months after the Dark Tournament. The Sensui arc = never happened, not going to happen.
We have Hiei. Hiei is dead. He died in such a way that he considers it extremely shameful, not in the least because it was not in a fight, it was an accident, and it was caused by temporary insanity/mental and emotional instability on his part. Now, at this time, Kurama is also presumed to be dead (you can tell this is such a happy-fluffy fanfic, can't you?), and has been so for three weeks. Koenma has confirmed his death, but refuses to divulge any details about the mission during which it occurred, or what really happened to him, leaving the other characters frustrated and angry as well as grieving.
Nobody expects Hiei to die as well, and Koenma needs him for something heinously vital, upon which the rest of the team/all the gummi bears/the worlds depend. To top it all off, everyone (including Koenma) thinks Hiei's death was on purpose, because, well, that's sure how it looks. Cue OMG!angst all around.
The Character Decision In Question: Koenma all but demands that Hiei return to life and go on the uber-important mission, and Hiei refuses to do either one.
My Fiance's Position: Hiei is a warrior, and one with a strict code of honor; shame and disgrace are to be avoided at all costs, and ignoble death is not acceptable. He also has his sister to look after, and teammates who need his help. As someone who takes intense pride in his strength, to allow himself to be thought of as weak in this fashion would be incredibly angering. He's given his word that he'll help the team and would not break it by abandoning them once he's told they need him. Therefore, Hiei would be unlikely to refuse his life back, and would accept it immediately, if only to help the others out and then go find an honorable way to get killed again.
My Position: Hiei has very little regard for his own existence or worth, and while he does have a personal code of ethics, how he got where he is, is relatively unimportant compared to the fact that he's there. He is humiliated, and does not want to have to admit what actually happened (since he considers an accidental death more shameful than deliberate suicide), but if Yukina were to confront him he would not be able to outright lie; neither would his teammates ever forgive him if he let them think his death had been on purpose. Coming back to life = either ruined trust, or further humiliation. He is also not entirely back to mental stability at the time the offer is made, and has a list of very good reasons to be unhappy with the way life has been going for him of late. He believes Koenma to be grossly exaggerating his importance and does not consider himself to be indispensable. He has accomplished all but one of his life goals, and the last one is rather moot at this point, being a personal fulfillment errand. Therefore, Hiei would be unlikely to accept his life back, and would refuse it immediately, if only to avoid facing Yukina after what's happened.
Can anyone weigh in on this? I'll accept it if I'm reading his character wrong, but this is a vital point for me in this fic. If Hiei accepts his life back at the time that it's offered, my whole plot is shafted. On the other hand, my fiance does have a self-cohesive and reasonably plausible stance, and refuses to read any more of my fic while it's based on what he calls a "basic blunder".
So, let me know what you think? Any advice or character insight would be appreciated. I'll expand more on the background if necessary.
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:16 am
I agree with both of you initially, but the more I think about it, the more I think Hiei would indeed refuse being brought back to life.
Hiei does have ties to his life, and reasons for living. He does have good reasons to come back, which is understandable. However, I agree that he would prefer to stay dead because the way he died sounds so embarrassing, at the least. He is very proud, and while that means that he would want another shot, it would also mean that he doesn't want charity, or a handout, from ANYONE. If Koenma brought him back to life, I think Hiei would feel indebted to the prince, even more so than before, which I don't think he could stand.
Also, in argument against the fact that he might come back for Yukina, if the story had taken place after the Three Kings saga, my mind might be even more convinced that he wouldn't come back, because in that saga he accepts death at one point. (I have always thought that this was a mark of his respect for Kuwabara--he knows that Yukina is now safe, and is able to die without regretting it, even though he doesn't actually die.)
I just feel like Hiei is someone who wouldn't want to un-do what had already been done...and at the same time, he wouldn't want to destroy his life over an accident. However, as you say, he hasn't ever regarded his own life as vitally important, has he?
You're right, it is confusing. At the same time, though, I feel like you could go either way and make it believable. And as long as you illustrate the choice that he makes to his readers, it will be understandable and true to his character.
(I'd like to read this fic, once it's done. It sounds interesting!)
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Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:34 pm
. . . You cannot begin to know how much I love you for giving your opinion. I was pretty much going to call this post a lost cause. *tackle-hugs you*
Obviously the fic is a divergence, which means it can't be post-3 Kings arc, but for us to accept Hiei's behavior during the 3 Kings arc in the first place, we have to accept that his views on death, life, and his purpose are all still part of his character even if it hasn't come up yet in the series. The plot may change in a divergence, but the characters should always stay the same, and I've always felt that means studying their behavior throughout the entire series, including the part that I'm not using as canon.
You bring up a good point about being indebted to Koenma; hadn't thought of that. I'm pretty sure at this point that I'm not going to convince my fiance, but it's good to know you think either position could be realistically pulled off if done carefully. ^^
The fic's definitely not done, but it's in progress here on the guild. I'll be posting as I get chapters out (most of it's written, technically, but I'm rewriting the beginning, so the 100k of work I've got done isn't going to catch up with me for another couple of revised chapters).
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:42 am
^_______^ Glad to know I could help. Why did Togashi-san make Hiei so DIFFICULT?! Then again, it's one of his best traits. I can't wait to read your fic!
EDIT: After reading it, I stand stronger by my original opinion. I know it's possible/likely that you set up the conversation between Koenma and Hiei knowing that Hiei would reject it, therefore swaying my following opinions somewhat, but the friction between those two in that scene reinforces my thoughts so well it's ridiculous at any rate.
Koenma's scolding of Hiei, his anger, and more importantly his insistence that he's breaking Spirit World law would be enough to stop Hiei from wanting to bother with it. I know Hiei would never tell Koenma that it was an accident, not suicide (at the same time, though, one has to consider which Hiei would find more unbearable--being considered a weak coward or a fool?) and yet Koenma's attitude about the whole thing, for me, turns Hiei off to the idea almost immediately. Essentially, Koenma acts very "you-owe-me" about the entire ordeal, which I find ironic considering Hiei actually doesn't want to be brought back.
Koenma's attempt to basically torture Hiei into submitting to a new life (perhaps that's extreme, but I call them like I see them) I think would be yet another factor. While you make it clear that Hiei is really in hell in that prison I think that he's stubborn enough to hold out longer than he would have if Koenma hadn't threatened him so much. I just adore how stubborn and proud the guy is. ^_______^
As for the mission that needs Hiei so desperately, if Koenma had told him about it beforehand, his "No," wouldn't have been nonchalant or definitive, it would have been a scream, I think. I doubt in all the worlds that Hiei would ever willingly go back to that island let alone with Yusuke and Kuwabara in tow. And with Yukina? Forget about it. He'd be too afraid that she would figure him out, and I think he'd rather give up a lung than allow Yusuke and Kuwabara any more knowledge of his past than they already have.
On a side note, the fic, so far, is excellent; everyone's in character and yet you bring much more to them than I have ever seen in a fanfiction. I like the implied romantic tones and I like how you're including Yukina in a mission. (I've never seen that before.) What I find interesting is that in every serious YYH fanfiction I've read (maybe two others besides this) Koenma is always a very merciless ruler. I suppose it comes with the territory, I mean, he has to be strict when assigning others to their afterlife, I just find it strangely wonderful that he's such a tyrant in this fic and others. (Kind of makes me hate his character, though.) All in all, an amazing piece of work. biggrin
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:30 pm
I'm so glad you're enjoying it, and thanks tons for the kudos! Yes, Koenma's acting really harsh in the beginning, but it'll take *counts on her fingers, moves on to her toes* lots more chapters for the full reason why to come out. The plot's kind of long and twisty, and I'm trying not to give everything away too soon. Readers find out at the same time the characters do, which isn't for a good while. ^^
Chapter 4 is kind of being a stubborn b***h right now, but I'm confident I'll conquer it eventually.
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