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Some Questions Regarding the Soul and Afterlife

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Ninyaruto

Dapper Hunter

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:16 pm


Hello, I'm not very knowledgeable about the Bible, and I was wondering if you guys could help me with a few questions I have.

From what I've heard, animals don't have souls. So, can they sin? Or are their actions not held to those standards, since they don't have souls to go to Heaven or Hell? The Snake was punished for its actions, so why would God now allow animals to act without repercussions? Some animals have done very admiral things, and others have engaged in homosexual activity (without any human interference).

I've heard a variety of answers for my next question, but I'll ask what you guys think. What happened to people who died before Christ? And, if they somehow got into Heaven, what was the point of his death?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm


No animals do not have souls and therefore cannot sin. As for the snake, i believe it was metaphorical or Satan disguised as a snake or Satan putting the image of a snake in the mind of Eve because well... snakes can't talk. And the one that deceived Eve did talk and not only that had a brain complex enough to be able to deceive. So the snake was Satan not like an actual normal reptile snake.

As for your next question i myself have been trying to prove my idea for a while and still not completely satisfied yet. What i believe is that in the three days that Christ was dead he went into the place of the dead (sheol/hades/whatever-else-people-like-to-call-it) and preached of his coming and God's accomplishment and therefore leaving the message there with them to be preached amongst themselves when he was resurrected. Or something along the lines of that. I've written up what I've found out so far in the Debate/discussion subforum in here.

The Urban Elf


Ninyaruto

Dapper Hunter

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:41 pm


No, I suppose snakes aren't prone to talking under normal circumstances. Yet if it wasn't really a snake, why were snakes "punished" by having to crawl on their stomachs?

I've not come across your theory about Christ going to the place of the dead before, but it certainly would bring closure to the issue.

Oh, another thing that has puzzled me: Is there love in Heaven? I mean the sort between a couple. If a husband and wife meet in Heaven after death, would they be permitted to, well, make love? And what of those who had no chance to marry in life?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:37 pm


It does say that there will be no marriage in that kind of way, you would be able to recognise people but the former relationships would no longer exist.
Matthew 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
Reading the verses before might also help.

I haven't really come across ANY theories about how the people before the death/resurrection of Christ gained eternal life. I spent quite a while trying to find out some theories and even asked priests and other members of my church and none gave me any answers so i resorted to trying to find out myself and of course gave out my ideas to see if anyone could see fault in it.

Also about the snake thing again it's metaphorical/symbolic. He curses the ground and the serpent, the serpent a symbol of deception and the dust the symbol of death (dust you are and dust you will return, also a sign on infertile soil etc...). The serpent also representing Satan. He's basically prophesying the end when man (i.e. Jesus) would crush his head and defeat Satan/death whilst Satan would be doomed to crawl on his belly (be a low-life) and eat dust (dust=death, taste death and defeat) and basically have a miserable existence.

The Urban Elf


Ninyaruto

Dapper Hunter

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:46 pm


Hm, it's sad to think that devotion couldn't continue after death.

The only other theories I've heard that aren't extremely vague are outdated. The old concept of purgatory, and the thought that those who died before Christ would go there, seems fair, but purgatory in general doesn't fit in well with what I know of Christianity. Still, it raises the question of where those souls were from the time they died until the coming of Christ.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:14 pm


Ninyaruto
Hm, it's sad to think that devotion couldn't continue after death.

The only other theories I've heard that aren't extremely vague are outdated. The old concept of purgatory, and the thought that those who died before Christ would go there, seems fair, but purgatory in general doesn't fit in well with what I know of Christianity. Still, it raises the question of where those souls were from the time they died until the coming of Christ.

Well there are many mentions of a "place of the dead" which wasn't heaven or hell. In Hebrew it's Sheol and in Greek it's Hades, basically just where souls go and wait for judgement day. Which is what i believe in i don't believe that souls are in heaven or hell yet seeing as judgement day hasn't occurred and on that day both the living and the dead would be judged and there would be no point in judging the dead if they were already in heaven/hell and therefore had already been judged.

Also marriage was designed as also a symbol to the complete unity of God. And in the end the church is to be married to Christ therefore allowing us to become a part of God's perfect unity so really there would be absolutely no point in marriage in heaven. I doubt that we would particularly feel the need seeing as all relationships i believe are just our human quest for feeling loved and if we're with God and without sin our need for love would be completely fulfilled.

The Urban Elf


Sarcastic_Angel

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:21 pm


I"m going to have to agree with Urban Elf. The Snake wasn't a snake but Satan in disguise, or a metaphor of Satan. and because Satan took this form and deceived Adam and Eve, and abandoned God, he was comdemned to live in the dust, the representation of death.
There is a verse in the bible (somewhere, I'm not sure exactly where, but I can ask my mom) that says Jesus went to hell (or whatever it's know as) and he preached of God and the good news. and Jesus was sent to save the souls of those to come, by dying for them. and I think for the people before him. he went and preached in hell, so maybe it was the chance for the souls there. or maybe if the the people believed in God before Jesus they went to heaven. I seriously doubt Moses or Noah or Abraham (and etc) would have been sent to hell.

The whole love issue in heaven. I think the relationship will continue after death, but more in the sense of the emotion. Getting married makes two people one in God's eyes plus in Genesis somewhere, it says something along the lines that man was not made to be alone, so I don't see why he would end that. maybe he will, I don't know. But if that love continues after death, I seriously doubt that couples would make love. sex and kissing and all the other stuff is pleasures of the flesh. after we die, our souls go to heaven, not our bodies. So I think the emotion would continue, but the physical actions would be discontinued.

Excellent questions by the way.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:11 am


The Urban Elf
No animals do not have souls and therefore cannot sin. As for the snake, i believe it was metaphorical or Satan disguised as a snake or Satan putting the image of a snake in the mind of Eve because well... snakes can't talk. And the one that deceived Eve did talk and not only that had a brain complex enough to be able to deceive. So the snake was Satan not like an actual normal reptile snake.


but how do we know that before the fall we couldn't communicate with animals? it very well could have been that way b/c during that time we were perfect beings in a perfect world where everything interacted with each other in a peaceful manner with no death, hate...etc. although i can agree though that it was satan taking on the persona of a snake or something along those lines that made referring to him as a snake appropriate. but just something to think about.

anyway to the questions as hand. while no animals don't have souls and cannot sin, they are affected by our fallen state since when we fell we brought the entirety of earth's nature with it affecting everything around us. i believe this is why we now have carnivorous life on the planet now, which started after the flood. as to the people before Christ, as we know there are at least two mentioned that were brought up into heaven without tasting death....now those that died in the physical sense still had to make the choice to follow God and those who were followers of God and not lead astray were given a chance to accept the works of God through Christ when Christ went to the place of those who died before he came (sheol) and preached/taught them about the salvation that he offered to them. however even there they had the choice to accept him or not (which i think they'd have to be stupid to not to at that point) but the point of his death was to bring those who were children of God into God's eternal family.

trinity343


The Urban Elf

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:00 pm


trinity343
The Urban Elf
No animals do not have souls and therefore cannot sin. As for the snake, i believe it was metaphorical or Satan disguised as a snake or Satan putting the image of a snake in the mind of Eve because well... snakes can't talk. And the one that deceived Eve did talk and not only that had a brain complex enough to be able to deceive. So the snake was Satan not like an actual normal reptile snake.


but how do we know that before the fall we couldn't communicate with animals? it very well could have been that way b/c during that time we were perfect beings in a perfect world where everything interacted with each other in a peaceful manner with no death, hate...etc. although i can agree though that it was satan taking on the persona of a snake or something along those lines that made referring to him as a snake appropriate. but just something to think about.

anyway to the questions as hand. while no animals don't have souls and cannot sin, they are affected by our fallen state since when we fell we brought the entirety of earth's nature with it affecting everything around us. i believe this is why we now have carnivorous life on the planet now, which started after the flood. as to the people before Christ, as we know there are at least two mentioned that were brought up into heaven without tasting death....now those that died in the physical sense still had to make the choice to follow God and those who were followers of God and not lead astray were given a chance to accept the works of God through Christ when Christ went to the place of those who died before he came (sheol) and preached/taught them about the salvation that he offered to them. however even there they had the choice to accept him or not (which i think they'd have to be stupid to not to at that point) but the point of his death was to bring those who were children of God into God's eternal family.

It's pretty much impossible because we definitely cannot speak the languages of all animals, our tongues/mouths/teeth/everything-else-that-is-involved-in-speech simply cannot pronounce the sounds needed. And vice versa. A snake cannot speak the language of a human it lacks the physical anatomy to do so.
As for another form of communication like sign language that would imply that animals have a large enough well... "brain-capacity" to be able to think on the same level as a human. I'm sure we could train chimpanzees in a rudimentary kind of sign language but i highly doubt any animal could be taught to the level where you could have as complex of a discussion as was held by Eve and the serpent. And there really is no reason to think that animals would suddenly become much dumber after the fall and lose the ability to communicate if they did at one stage before.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:48 pm


The Urban Elf
trinity343
The Urban Elf
No animals do not have souls and therefore cannot sin. As for the snake, i believe it was metaphorical or Satan disguised as a snake or Satan putting the image of a snake in the mind of Eve because well... snakes can't talk. And the one that deceived Eve did talk and not only that had a brain complex enough to be able to deceive. So the snake was Satan not like an actual normal reptile snake.


but how do we know that before the fall we couldn't communicate with animals? it very well could have been that way b/c during that time we were perfect beings in a perfect world where everything interacted with each other in a peaceful manner with no death, hate...etc. although i can agree though that it was satan taking on the persona of a snake or something along those lines that made referring to him as a snake appropriate. but just something to think about.

anyway to the questions as hand. while no animals don't have souls and cannot sin, they are affected by our fallen state since when we fell we brought the entirety of earth's nature with it affecting everything around us. i believe this is why we now have carnivorous life on the planet now, which started after the flood. as to the people before Christ, as we know there are at least two mentioned that were brought up into heaven without tasting death....now those that died in the physical sense still had to make the choice to follow God and those who were followers of God and not lead astray were given a chance to accept the works of God through Christ when Christ went to the place of those who died before he came (sheol) and preached/taught them about the salvation that he offered to them. however even there they had the choice to accept him or not (which i think they'd have to be stupid to not to at that point) but the point of his death was to bring those who were children of God into God's eternal family.

It's pretty much impossible because we definitely cannot speak the languages of all animals, our tongues/mouths/teeth/everything-else-that-is-involved-in-speech simply cannot pronounce the sounds needed. And vice versa. A snake cannot speak the language of a human it lacks the physical anatomy to do so.
As for another form of communication like sign language that would imply that animals have a large enough well... "brain-capacity" to be able to think on the same level as a human. I'm sure we could train chimpanzees in a rudimentary kind of sign language but i highly doubt any animal could be taught to the level where you could have as complex of a discussion as was held by Eve and the serpent. And there really is no reason to think that animals would suddenly become much dumber after the fall and lose the ability to communicate if they did at one stage before.


ahh...but thinking that way would put a limit on God's creation while it was still in perfection. remember it is our sin that caused the whole world to fall...both our spirits and our minds. meaning that we (and animals) could possibly communicate on a higher level before Adam and Eve brought sin into the world. who knows...maybe then we didn't just use 10% of our brain's ability but all 100% of it, same going for animals. just b/c we don't do it now doesn't mean that when we as the creation of God couldn't do it before hand. it's just an idea not an absolute b/c it isn't something that is in the Bible, just something that can be speculated on. The fact that eve wasn't surprised by the serpent speaking means that isn't wasn't an uncommon thing. again...just a speculation...not necessarily a fact. but yes after the fall animals could have become a lot dumber then they were before b/c sin didn't only effect us as humans but it affected the entire creation on earth causing everything to fall. this world is but a shadow compared to what a perfect world (in God's eyes not ours) looks like. everything is dim and gray...even if we don't realize it.

trinity343


PhaseBurn

IRL Gaian

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:07 am


Why is it that we have to go somewhere after death? Why can't we fade to blah instead.

Eternal life is, in its own way, torture, regardess of where it's spent.
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