Welcome to Gaia! ::

Reply Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion
Re: Rape victims 'must have abortions'

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

ShadowIce

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:05 pm


Well, there's a thread over in the Pro-Life section of the thread about the Al-Azhar ruling on rape and abortion. In part because someone said they wondered what Pro-Choicers would say about the whole thing (and I am Pro-Choice) and partly because the subject interested me, I decided to pull the topic over here. So here we go!

First, I'd like to say that I am extremely skeptical about the idea that this law forces women who have been raped to have abortions. While it is entirely possible that this is the case, the media has a tendency to sensationalize events so as to get many viewers. The fact that this declaration was probably done in a language other than English also raises the risk that this statement simply isn't being quoted correctly. Mistranslations aren't fun, but they certainly happen. I'm far more inclined to believe that instead, this organization wants abortion to be legalized for victims of rape. Here is an article that might support such an interpretation:


Quote:
Row over abortion right for rape victims in Egypt

By Ramadan Al Sherbini, Correspondent
Published: January 01, 2008, 14:40

Cairo: With an estimated 20,000 cases of rape annually, some Egyptian lawmakers are pushing for giving rape victims the right to abortion.

According to the semi-official newspaper Al Ahram, an MP has presented a draft bill to the parliament demanding an amendment to the Egyptian law to allow pregnant woman, who has been raped, to go for abortion. The aim, according to MP Khalil Qouta, is to curb an increasing number of children of unknown parents in Egypt.

“Any girl or woman, who is subjected to rape, has the right in Islam to have abortion at anytime, and she would not commit a sin for doing this,” said Egypt’s top Muslim cleric Mohammad Sayed Tantawi.

Giving his blessing to the pro-abortion bill, Tantawi, who is the Grand Shaikh of Al Azhar, demanded that women given the right to abortion should have done their best to resist the rapist.

His fatwa (religious edict) has drawn opposition, though. “Endorsing the right to abortion in the cases of rape has several risks,” said Fawzia Abdul Sattar, a professor of criminal law. "In the first place, this bill deals with the aftermath of the crime, but not the crime itself," she told Gulf News. “Legalising abortion for rape victims may well encourage immoral behavior on the part of girls involved in illicit affairs, who would manipulate the code and claim they were raped.”

Abdul Sattar also warns that some “unscrupulous” medical professionals could take advantage of the bill to perform illegal abortion on immoral women. “Rather, we need to promote ethics and religious piety in order to encounter the crime of rape," she said.

Pro-life supporters, like Mohammad Rafaat, a professor of Sharia (Islamic Law), believe that abortion for the raped women should be conducted only in the first days before a fetus forms. "There is a consensus among Muslim scholars that the abortion is not permissible 120 days after the conception occurs." Rafaat urges the government to set up medical centres to treat victims immediately after they are raped. "This can help remove the effects of rape before the fetus is formed," he said.

“While supporting the right to abortion for raped women, Nehad Abul Qumsan, the chairperson of the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights, balks at the suggestion that abortion can be carried out at any time. Many women give birth to premature babies in the seventh or eighth month after conception. Should they be allowed to have abortion at this time?" she asked. “I think the issue should be resolved from the beginning and abortion restricted to cases when the fetus is not formed," she said.

So, basically, this is a country that does not currently allow victims of rape to have abortions, and because of this recommendation, legislation has been introduced that would allow women who were raped the option to terminate. I just am having a hard time believing that an Egyptian based Muslim organization would mandate abortion under any circumstances. I think it's more likely that the Al Azhar were saying that women must have the option, not that they must be forced, and something got lost in translation. I could be wrong.

But even if this law does force women who have been raped to have abortions, I feel the need to point out that this is not the case of a Pro-Choice country deciding to go Pro-Abortion. This is not an example of abortion rights slippery slopping it down into forced abortion. This is taking place in Egypt, where even abortions to save life of the mother/health of the mother and/or in the case of fetal deformity are not expressly allowed. This is a little old (from 1999) but it's the best I could come up with right now:


Quote:
World Abortion Policies 1999

(17) Abortion law in Egypt does not expressly allow abortions to be performed to save the life of the woman, but general principles of criminal legislation allow abortions to be performed for this reason on the ground of necessity. In addition, necessity is generally interpreted to cover situations when health is endangered and even situations involving foetal impairment.

Because of this, I think it is a deep mistake to assume that this is happening in any form because of Pro-Choice laws. Egypt is not a Pro-Choice friendly country. It's laws are not Pro-Choice.

Anyway, assuming that a country was considering forcing rape victims to have abortion, I would oppose such an action just as surely as I would oppose someone trying to force a woman to continue a pregnancy. For me, it comes down to bodily integrity. If this woman wants to use her body to provide for the fetus, that is her right. She gets to decide who/what will and will not use her body. To force an abortion on her would just as much a violation of her bodily integrity as if they had forced her to remain pregnant. I don't care if it will benefit "social stability" or any such thing. Violating a woman's right to bodily integrity so that someone else can gain is unacceptable.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:47 pm


Well, alright. I guess it may have been inaccurate information. I hate that. XP

So, I find it interesting, but I can reconcile the fact that they're allowing rape victims abortions. I feel sympathy for the woman, but in a way, it's sad that the child has to be made to seem like less of a being due to the father being a rapist b*****d. It's life is no less important, but it's in a precarious situation. You wouldn't kill your 2 year old child if the man who fathered him raped you 4 years into your marriage would you? (That's a little bit like "Enough" with Jennifer Lopez, actually. XD)

However, I feel that people may abuse this system. But that's true of every system. If there ever comes a time when abortion becomes illegal, I'd like the rape victim exception to be a choice to be put into the system. It would be difficult to legislate, but again, abortion legality as it is now is a mess, too.

You're right shadow. Egypt is NOT abortion friendly, so I was wrong to assume that stupid slippery slope fallacy. We're none of us perfect. heart 3nodding



McPhee
Crew

Friendly Elocutionist

8,150 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Flatterer 200
  • Popular Thread 100

ShadowIce

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:39 pm


McPhee
Well, alright. I guess it may have been inaccurate information. I hate that. XP

Isn't it sad that it can be so incredibly difficult to find accurate information? One would think that something like this would be a relatively straight forward deal, but in the age of the internet, this simply isn't the case. I really had a hard time finding anything about this case that wasn't basically a blog.

McPhee
So, I find it interesting, but I can reconcile the fact that they're allowing rape victims abortions. I feel sympathy for the woman, but in a way, it's sad that the child has to be made to seem like less of a being due to the father being a rapist b*****d. It's life is no less important, but it's in a precarious situation. You wouldn't kill your 2 year old child if the man who fathered him raped you 4 years into your marriage would you? (That's a little bit like "Enough" with Jennifer Lopez, actually. XD)

However, I feel that people may abuse this system. But that's true of every system. If there ever comes a time when abortion becomes illegal, I'd like the rape victim exception to be a choice to be put into the system. It would be difficult to legislate, but again, abortion legality as it is now is a mess, too.

Abortion in the case of rape is certainly a difficult topic. There are all kinds of problems, ranging from the ethical (do rape fetuses deserve less/the same protection as consensual sex fetuses?) to the practical (if we allowed a rape exception, how could we keep all women who wanted abortions from claiming rape?) but it's a situation we have to deal with. It took me a long time to understand why so many Pro-Lifers were willing to allow rape exceptions, but I think I have a better grasp on it now. I believe that it stems from the belief that consent to sex is consent to pregnancy. If a woman didn't consent to sex, then under this view, she would not have consented to being pregnant. Plus the fact that rape victims have just suffered a terrible trauma, so empathy comes into the equation.

McPhee
You're right shadow. Egypt is NOT abortion friendly, so I was wrong to assume that stupid slippery slope fallacy. We're none of us perfect. heart 3nodding

Don't sweat it. biggrin I'm sure we've all done something like this.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:17 am


I always thought it was a shame that women in this country (England) seem to have pressure put on them to abort in the case of rape. I'm glad egypt have given them the option though.

In the case of rape I am pretty much sure I agree with abortion even though i'm a bit undecided in other cases. It's not nice that people bully rape victims into it though, they might be able to use it as something good which came out of the rape and it might help them recover.

Anardana

Magnetic Dabbler

9,750 Points
  • Elocutionist 200
  • Treasure Hunter 100
  • Tycoon 200

BimboZombie

500 Points
  • Dressed Up 200
  • Member 100
  • Gaian 50
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:03 pm


Umm...here's an idea Egypt, maybe you could try having some kind of punishment system for rapists before killing something that has been sitting in a womb doing nothing but grow for a few months?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:35 am


Dudegirl
Umm...here's an idea Egypt, maybe you could try having some kind of punishment system for rapists before killing something that has been sitting in a womb doing nothing but grow for a few months?


Rapists are stoned to death.


PS: Right now i'm stoned to death too. Better kind than they get though.

King Seth


La Veuve Zin

Rainbow Smoker

5,650 Points
  • Mega Tipsy 100
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Ultimate Player 200
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:01 pm


King Seth
Rapists are stoned to death.


PS: Right now i'm stoned to death too. Better kind than they get though.


WIN. heart heart heart
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:43 pm


Dudegirl
Umm...here's an idea Egypt, maybe you could try having some kind of punishment system for rapists before killing something that has been sitting in a womb doing nothing but grow for a few months?

They do have some punishments but often it's the victims that are punished though.

I don't agree with aborting cause of rape. Is the fetus any different? Why punish it when the fetus didn't commit the crime? It's not going to make the situation go away.

The criminal needs to be locked up and the victim most likely needs serious counciling to help them recover mentally.

rweghrheh

Reply
Pro-Life/Pro-Choice Discussion

 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum