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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:08 pm
Conclusion: Kurama is a suicidal dumbass. I've just talked this out with a friend, for the original purpose of analyzing the YYH characters' respective battle tactics, strategies, and fighting styles, the better to figure out a coordinated fight scene in my fanfiction; but I found myself increasingly unable to fathom Round 3 of the Tournament. There weren't simply bad tactics involved -- there were the worst tactics I can possibly imagine Kurama getting away with and still hoping Yuusuke wouldn't notice. As I began to parse out each individual strategic decision he made during that round, I became convinced entirely of something that I'd suspected for a while: Kurama was not just stupid, he was actively trying to get killed. This differs from my previous opinion that he had definitely suicidal tendencies, but wasn't acting on them consciously. As far as I'm concerned, there was no way he could have made this many mistakes in succession without doing it on purpose, so I'm revising my evaluation to assume that either Togashi-sama sucked royally at strategy, or everyone's favorite redhead spent Round 3 being rampantly suicidal. Without further ado, as I imagine you're wondering where I'm coming from, we'll start at the beginning: with Kurama stepping in front of Yuusuke, and preventing him from taking the first match. The strategic advantage in having the team leader/strongest member go last assumes that both teams are equal in strength. In addition to making the fights more challenging and more enjoyable, it ensures that the leader is not too fatigued to face his counterpart. If one team is significantly stronger than the other, the advantage goes away, since the power expense necessary to take out the weaker members is less drastic, and the leader can afford to take them on and still expect to have plenty of power left. Now, Kurama knew this. He would not simply take it for granted that the leader goes last, not without being aware of the strategic merit. He was also able (as Yuusuke was not) to reliably gauge Team Masho in terms of their power levels relative to him and Yuusuke. If we trust Genkai, who was also able to assess their power, the Shinobi were not particularly strong, as Shinobi go, and at least two of them were significantly weaker than both of Team Urameshi's eligible members. Even though Kurama listed Risho as one of the two strongest, the Earth Master was less than impressive, and either of the two fighters could have taken him without too much trouble -- as evidenced by the ignoble defeat he suffered when Kuwabara hit him just twice. So, and not to be unfair to the ninja, even only Yuusuke and Kurama should have been plenty to defeat their team no matter in which order they fought, provided Yuusuke faced Jin without too much of his power drained and was still able to handle it well. In addition, the reason Kurama gives for taking the first few fights -- so he could "ascertain their weaknessess" -- is rather lackluster, although good enough for Yuusuke, apparently. Kurama would be equally capable of sizing up the team members from the sidelines -- possibly more so, as he could watch the entire team as well as the fighter in the ring -- and there's no rule against giving Yuusuke information and advice as needed. Once again, not to impugn the ninja overmuch, but Yuusuke would have taken Gama and Touya and Bakken apart in succession, as long as he was even moderately cautious, and he was in a sufficiently serious mood at the beginning of the round that he wouldn't have lost his head. He would not, for example, have been fazed by Gama's speed, and would have taken a punch or two and then given back a wrecking ball before the demon had a chance to mark him up and seal anything -- you'll recall that Gama's strategy was to enhance his own strength and try melee before moving on to marking his opponent. Touya was not nearly as fast as Yuusuke (he was slower than Jin, and Hiei remarked that Jin was slower than Yuusuke) and did not appear to be able to take very much punishment. His ice attacks are geared towards surprise more than anything -- ergo, they aren't optimally effective in the open when the opponent can dodge, but would be very devastating if used from hiding -- and he would have gone down after the first few pummelings. And, of course, we all know how Bakken fared. We have to assume, by the way, that Kurama knew at least a moderate amount about Team Masho's capabilities. Even Hiei seemed to, and Hiei is much younger than Kurama. Kurama knew Jin on sight, rather than by reputation, and no matter how well-known the Shinobi are in the Makai, I doubt too many demons have seen them face to face. It's remarked on significantly that the Shinobi are "exposing" themselves, having "always conducted their affairs in secret" up until now; so it suggests to me that he's not only had dealings with them before, but that he knows a great deal about this particular sect. This makes his "ascertain their weaknesses" excuse even less plausible, and some of his subsequent actions even less excusable. Ergo, taking the first few fights was not the most strategically sound decision Kurama could have made, and was largely responsible for how badly the round went. But let's suppose I'm wrong about all that (who knows, I might be), step back, and take a look at how Kurama handled the fights themselves. GAMA: Even Hiei saw how Kurama's tactics were flawed -- waiting until he'd gauged Gama's strength to make a move -- but he didn't know the half of it. The fox had already ascertained that Gama was a close-range fighter, and yet failed to make a long-range offense. He spent a nice long time doing pretty, pointless flips and dodges that let Gama get far too close to him until his leg got marked. At that point, he rather ought to have attacked as well, but chose to try and dodge again -- a maneuver he knew would fail due to the curse. Where was his "Petals and Thorns" then, when it could easily have been used to guard him from Gama's makeup attacks? He waited until the last minute to take the offensive, and only after all four of his limbs were chained. It's one thing to hold your hand until your opponent has shown his, and quite another to allow yourself to be compromised in the process. And even then, for some reason, when he had the damned whip summoned and was totally capable of manipulating it with his usual precision, he refused to kill Gama. I seem to recall him agreeing with Hiei during the first round that mercy was not a luxury they could afford, and yet he not only did not kill Gama on the first attack when he clearly could have, but he tried to talk Gama out of moving so that he wouldn't bleed to death. I really, truly can't fathom why he made this particular decision; it makes no sense to me, unless (as I've previously stipulated) he might have background with these demons. But even then, he has no excuse for violating his own rules at the possible expense of his team's survival. Here's a thought: Was there no other attack available to him that could have incapacitated Gama without mutilating him? I know he can't use demonic plants while in human form, but he acted during these fights (and most of the rest of the series, for that matter) as though the Death Plant and the roses were the only things he could grow or manipulate. You would think he'd have some vines or some ferns or at least some damn weeds on hand in the event that he was not getting anywhere with the first two. He's arrogant and vain, but not an idiot. I doubt anything will convince me he was simply without any backups unless he deliberately went in without them -- which only reinforces my point. Speaking of blood, he knew, or at least suspected, that it was an ingredient in Gama's makeup; he recognized it by the smell, much as he had tracked down Genbu earlier in the series. His sense of smell is incredibly acute, and he's familiar enough with the scent of blood that I'm surprised it took him as long as it did to make the internal remark that let me know he'd figured it out. It goes without saying that he knew better than to let Gama get blood all over him the way he did. And even assuming he didn't quite figure it out in time, he knew Gama could seal his energy, because Gama told him so. I don't buy his total surprise when it actually happened. You could see it happening, and he's got peripheral vision enough to have noticed the regular pattern with which he was being splattered. So that's the sum of the first fight, and we'll move on. Once again, let's forget all of that s**t, and presume that bad luck got Kurama stuck in the fight with Touya with his limbs chained and his energy sealed. TOUYA: Kurama began this one much more rationally, by attempting to buy time for the seals to wear off, and that at least worked for him well enough. I do, however, contest that he had no other recourse than to run. He was more agile than Touya, and as evidenced later in the Tournament, he had a pretty badass martial arts style of his own. While being aware of the fact that Touya would probably have a melee technique as well, he could have used the element of surprise to get in a good strike or two. Hand-to-hand is enough of a departure from his usual style that it could easily have caught Touya off-guard if correctly timed. Rather than attempt this, Kurama ran around the ring and let himself be plinked half to death. That seemed to be his entire strategy for this fight, barring smearing blood on the seal, which was a suspect move in my opinion. As Touya was telling him it wouldn't work, he pulled out a rose and tried to make it work, when it should have been fairly obvious that he still couldn't reach his energy. He didn't have to pull the whip to test it, if it needed testing, and it was needlessly dramatic and seemed to injure him further. I call foul, and accuse him of doing it for audience benefit -- which is to say, for Yuusuke's benefit, to make sure Yuusuke knew how helpless he still was. While that maneuver with the Death Plant might have been the only decent way around his inability to reach his power, it was also the fastest and surest way to take him out of the picture, and would not have been necessary if he'd planned up to par in the first place. By the little speech he gave at the end, it was reasonably obvious to me that he was sure he wasn't going to live more than a few seconds more, and that he wasn't awfully sad about that; the fact that he survived seemed to surprise him as much as anybody. So that's the sum of the second fight; handled better, but still not handled at all well. Taken all together, this, ladies and gents, is not just a background suicide complex. This is an "I hope Yuusuke doesn't notice because Hiei will but can't do anything about it" complex. This is active, self-destructive action. I surmise that it was a situational attempt, with three main criteria: 1) Hiei would be unable to interfere, 2) Yuusuke would not know what he was attempting, and 3) Kurama would still win all his matches (this last so that the team would still have a chance at survival). The only thing that went wrong was the dying part, and that only because Hiei and Yuusuke were willing to throw the entire Tournament for his sake. Otherwise, it would have worked perfectly, although he would have died from Bakken's attacks and not Touya's. And, yet, he displayed such genuine surprise when things went badly for him that it made me doubt for a long time. But I'm serious when I say that he's smarter than that. He's more experienced than that. He should have known better than that and done things completely differently. I'd buy these tactics out of Kurama if he were no older than his human body -- his excellent reasoning only goes so far, and under duress I would expect any less seasoned fighter to make these kinds of glaring mistakes when life and loved ones are on the line. But Kurama is 1000+ years old. When one has Kurama's level of experience added to his level of cognitive reasoning, one has no bloody excuse for this much bald stupidity. I'm not terribly certain why he picked mid-Tournament for this. It's kind of a bad time, considering he might doom his entire team, and he hasn't seemed the type not to care. One person stipulated in a fanfic (I highly recommend you give it a read, it's very good) that Kurama allows himself to be injured in battle to throw off opponents. This I'll buy. It's solid philosophy and good tactics. However, anyone with the precision and skill necessary to pull off the exact sort of careful wounding that Kurama does is someone with the capability to fend off much more damage than he routinely takes -- someone crafty and devious and generally better at surviving. When Kurama plans to win, he wins, and with lots of flamboyant drama but no undue fuss (read: Genbu and Roto). It's only when he's planning to lose that he has trouble. A friend of mine, watching the series for the first time, remarked that he instantly assumed Kurama was planning to lose, from the redhead's words to Yuusuke at the start of the round, whereas I always assumed until now that he was still thinking of better plans. IN DEFENSE OF KURAMA: Kurama seems to me to be strikingly weak. None of his techniques require all that much power to maintain, and he doesn't really display any more raw power behind his attacks than Kuwabara, and perhaps even a little less. He has little of Yuusuke's bodily resistance or ability to take a punch, seems to have little to no defense beyond dodging, and employs precious few techniques that even have the potential to be defensively spun. He doesn't even seem able to throw up a basic energy shield, which even Yuusuke can do (we saw him attempt it against Suzaku). This seems odd to me, because knowing that it would have been easy to be killed once he became human (should any demons find him), he should have built defenses before he even considered attacks. He has 1000 years of knowing how not to die at his disposal, and the fastest way to die is to trust either offense or defense to always work; you need both, and lots of both, so that you always have a backup to keep you alive. However, in the absence of either, you get defense first. So why does he seem to have no defense at all? I'm still puzzling over this one. Even outside of the Tournament, his defenses suck royally, and that just seems very much unlike his character setup. I'm still taking suggestions on this one. If anyone has a better insight into this, feel free to toss it my way, and remember that I only imperfectly remember the sub for these episodes and have not read the manga at all. Trust me, if there's a better explanation for it in either the sub or the manga, I'll pounce on it. I'm not quite at a loss, but -- damn. Where did his long-term planning go? And why did he pick the Dark Tournament, Round 3, to be such a jackass? He knew better than anyone that he'd neatly doom his team if he died mid-Tournament. Gah, it makes my brain bleed. >.< *headdesk*
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:43 pm
eek WOW, you put a ton of thought and research into this. I applaud it wholeheartedly. This whole thing is very intelligently and articulately put together and I appreciate that more than you know. We need more intelligent people like you in the fandom, heaven's you analyze Yu Yu Hakusho more than I do, man did *I* think I analyzed it too, you put me to shame dear. You've put into much better words than I ever could, my opinions of Kurama and his battles in the dark tournament. There were so many glaring mistakes he made in that competition it wasn't even funny. So now that you've laid all of this information before us the next logical thing to do would be to ask... Why did he do it? Why would Kurama want to kill himself in the first place(for arguments sake that he wants to kill himself)? I only really have one theory about that... and that would be regret and guilt. Youko in the past is not what I would call a nice character. He was ruthless and malicious and would stop at nothing to obtain his over all goals. In his near death experience and fusion with the body of Shuichi, chances are Kurama's had plenty of time to reflect on his past and who he was. It is true of course that he was still almost as cold and heartless in his first few years in his human form. After all in the manga he had every intention of knowingly abandoning his mother, and in no picture I have ever seen of him as a child have I ever seen a smile on his face. For the most part it was his mother's kindness and understanding... not to mention her self sacrifice for him(in the manga Kurama is on a stool reaching to grab a can for an arts and crafts project, the stool wobbles and he begins to fall, but not before a bunch of plates shatter behind him. Shiori immediately dives down, slicing her arms open severely and catches Kurama's head, preventing what could have been a fatal fall.) that really made Kurama take a step back and look at his situation. I think after seeing her constant kindness and love for him really opened the human heart h now had, and Youko's demon soul slowly shifted further back into him. With new outlooks on how people were and how he should be I could see Kurama developing a very bad guilt complex and really regretting much of his life. Of course he says on a couple of occasions to opponents, specifically to Touya, that regret can fast creep up on one. So if we're looking for a reason why he would bee such a jackass about the third round, that's about all I can come up with. Feel free to shoot that theory of mine to hell, I LOVE a good and friendly debate ^_^
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:16 pm
Hoshi no Miko eek WOW, you put a ton of thought and research into this. I applaud it wholeheartedly. This whole thing is very intelligently and articulately put together and I appreciate that more than you know. We need more intelligent people like you in the fandom, heaven's you analyze Yu Yu Hakusho more than I do, man did *I* think I analyzed it too, you put me to shame dear. Heh. I try. I swear I have to take everything that interests me apart, and there are so many places in YYH that are just ripe for it. This makes the third complicated theory I've put forth about the series, and I don't see as I'll ever quit finding new things to research. ^^ Somewhere I have one about Kurama vs. Youko, and another one about something else I can't remember; they both need retooling, but if I can find them they'll probably make it to the guild also. And you, m'dear, are awesome for caring about my crackpot theories in the first place. Hoshi no Miko You've put into much better words than I ever could, my opinions of Kurama and his battles in the dark tournament. There were so many glaring mistakes he made in that competition it wasn't even funny. So now that you've laid all of this information before us the next logical thing to do would be to ask... Why did he do it? Why would Kurama want to kill himself in the first place(for arguments sake that he wants to kill himself)? Well, someone else (on livejournal) pointed out to me that regardless of why he wanted to kill himself in the first place, there would have to have been some kind of tangible benefit in his eyes for the rest of the team. He's not selfish enough, really, to throw his life away without any other purpose than that he didn't want to live anymore. I'd say he started with semi-active suicidal tendencies, and then saw an opening, as it were: something about the situation made him decide that it was a perfect time to take himself out when it would actually do his friends some good. What that good is, I'm still thinking about. Hoshi no Miko I only really have one theory about that... and that would be regret and guilt. Youko in the past is not what I would call a nice character. He was ruthless and malicious and would stop at nothing to obtain his over all goals. In his near death experience and fusion with the body of Shuichi, chances are Kurama's had plenty of time to reflect on his past and who he was. It is true of course that he was still almost as cold and heartless in his first few years in his human form. After all in the manga he had every intention of knowingly abandoning his mother, and in no picture I have ever seen of him as a child have I ever seen a smile on his face. For the most part it was his mother's kindness and understanding... not to mention her self sacrifice for him( in the manga Kurama is on a stool reaching to grab a can for an arts and crafts project, the stool wobbles and he begins to fall, but not before a bunch of plates shatter behind him. Shiori immediately dives down, slicing her arms open severely and catches Kurama's head, preventing what could have been a fatal fall.) that really made Kurama take a step back and look at his situation. I think after seeing her constant kindness and love for him really opened the human heart h now had, and Youko's demon soul slowly shifted further back into him. With new outlooks on how people were and how he should be I could see Kurama developing a very bad guilt complex and really regretting much of his life. Of course he says on a couple of occasions to opponents, specifically to Touya, that regret can fast creep up on one. That fits with my general theory that he hasn't adjusted to being human yet. He's got new sets of emotions, new sets of foreign experiences, and even his old reactions to things like loss are likely to be grossly skewed. A major plot point in my longfic depends on it, actually. ^^; But yes, that's sound. It gives us the most solid basis for why he hates himself enough to want to die, and fits with every little clue he's given us in the series. I just need to figure out why he thought dying during Round 3 would be good for his team in the first place. You can bet he chose his moment on purpose, so he had to have some rationalization for the timing. Hoshi no Miko So if we're looking for a reason why he would bee such a jackass about the third round, that's about all I can come up with. Feel free to shoot that theory of mine to hell, I LOVE a good and friendly debate ^_^ No need for shooting it to hell, it was perfectly good. ^^ Thanks tons for actually responding -- I was afraid my monster of an OP would scare most of the guild-members away.
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:41 am
Hoshi no Miko I only really have one theory about that... and that would be regret and guilt. Youko in the past is not what I would call a nice character. He was ruthless and malicious and would stop at nothing to obtain his over all goals. In his near death experience and fusion with the body of Shuichi, chances are Kurama's had plenty of time to reflect on his past and who he was. It is true of course that he was still almost as cold and heartless in his first few years in his human form. After all in the manga he had every intention of knowingly abandoning his mother, and in no picture I have ever seen of him as a child have I ever seen a smile on his face. For the most part it was his mother's kindness and understanding... not to mention her self sacrifice for him( in the manga Kurama is on a stool reaching to grab a can for an arts and crafts project, the stool wobbles and he begins to fall, but not before a bunch of plates shatter behind him. Shiori immediately dives down, slicing her arms open severely and catches Kurama's head, preventing what could have been a fatal fall.) that really made Kurama take a step back and look at his situation. I think after seeing her constant kindness and love for him really opened the human heart h now had, and Youko's demon soul slowly shifted further back into him. With new outlooks on how people were and how he should be I could see Kurama developing a very bad guilt complex and really regretting much of his life. Of course he says on a couple of occasions to opponents, specifically to Touya, that regret can fast creep up on one. JesanaeTekani That fits with my general theory that he hasn't adjusted to being human yet. He's got new sets of emotions, new sets of foreign experiences, and even his old reactions to things like loss are likely to be grossly skewed. A major plot point in my longfic depends on it, actually. ^^; But yes, that's sound. It gives us the most solid basis for why he hates himself enough to want to die, and fits with every little clue he's given us in the series. I just need to figure out why he thought dying during Round 3 would be good for his team in the first place. You can bet he chose his moment on purpose, so he had to have some rationalization for the timing. That has me stumped too I must confess. If Kurama really were planning out his death, then yeah, the third round of the Dark Tournament seems like a pretty stupid place to do it. I try not to wrack my brain too hard over it, lest I give myself a migrane from over thinking. Basically I have always accepted that "stupidity" as another part of Kurama's nature... because the "stupidity" can also be seen as mysteriousness... and we all know Kurama is mysterious. He's a secretive person and will only reveal what he thinks should be revealed... so half the time even the audience doesn't get to see what he's thinking. I have mixed feelings about this of course, because naturally I want to know what the hell is going on with him when he starts to seemingly act like a moron... but on the other hand there's fun in trying to unravel him, ya know? JesanaeTekani No need for shooting it to hell, it was perfectly good. ^^ Thanks tons for actually responding -- I was afraid my monster of an OP would scare most of the guild-members away. Are you kidding me? I've been waiting for more intelligent discussion and "debate" like this in the Yu Yu Hakusho guild! It took me a while longer than I really wanted to, to respond, but heavens this just called to me!
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:17 am
Hoshi no Miko Hoshi no Miko I only really have one theory about that... and that would be regret and guilt. Youko in the past is not what I would call a nice character. He was ruthless and malicious and would stop at nothing to obtain his over all goals. In his near death experience and fusion with the body of Shuichi, chances are Kurama's had plenty of time to reflect on his past and who he was. It is true of course that he was still almost as cold and heartless in his first few years in his human form. After all in the manga he had every intention of knowingly abandoning his mother, and in no picture I have ever seen of him as a child have I ever seen a smile on his face. For the most part it was his mother's kindness and understanding... not to mention her self sacrifice for him( in the manga Kurama is on a stool reaching to grab a can for an arts and crafts project, the stool wobbles and he begins to fall, but not before a bunch of plates shatter behind him. Shiori immediately dives down, slicing her arms open severely and catches Kurama's head, preventing what could have been a fatal fall.) that really made Kurama take a step back and look at his situation. I think after seeing her constant kindness and love for him really opened the human heart h now had, and Youko's demon soul slowly shifted further back into him. With new outlooks on how people were and how he should be I could see Kurama developing a very bad guilt complex and really regretting much of his life. Of course he says on a couple of occasions to opponents, specifically to Touya, that regret can fast creep up on one. JesanaeTekani That fits with my general theory that he hasn't adjusted to being human yet. He's got new sets of emotions, new sets of foreign experiences, and even his old reactions to things like loss are likely to be grossly skewed. A major plot point in my longfic depends on it, actually. ^^; But yes, that's sound. It gives us the most solid basis for why he hates himself enough to want to die, and fits with every little clue he's given us in the series. I just need to figure out why he thought dying during Round 3 would be good for his team in the first place. You can bet he chose his moment on purpose, so he had to have some rationalization for the timing. That has me stumped too I must confess. If Kurama really were planning out his death, then yeah, the third round of the Dark Tournament seems like a pretty stupid place to do it. I try not to wrack my brain too hard over it, lest I give myself a migrane from over thinking. Basically I have always accepted that "stupidity" as another part of Kurama's nature... because the "stupidity" can also be seen as mysteriousness... and we all know Kurama is mysterious. He's a secretive person and will only reveal what he thinks should be revealed... so half the time even the audience doesn't get to see what he's thinking. I have mixed feelings about this of course, because naturally I want to know what the hell is going on with him when he starts to seemingly act like a moron... but on the other hand there's fun in trying to unravel him, ya know? There is indeed. I wonder if he was trying to pull a Kuwabara and get killed to motivate Yuusuke? It fits with his vanity, works fine with the timing, and might explain why he was so careless overall. Or maybe he owed the Shinobi a debt of honor or something, or had screwed them over a long time ago and then felt bad for it. Or, hell, maybe both. He's a strange fox, that one. >.< Hm. I'm going to throw each of those three ideas in my brain mixer and break them down into logistics. I'll come back with that as soon as I can. Feel free to toss down your thoughts on them in the interim; mine is likely to take a long time due to my need to be overly thorough. sweatdrop Hoshi no Miko JesanaeTekani No need for shooting it to hell, it was perfectly good. ^^ Thanks tons for actually responding -- I was afraid my monster of an OP would scare most of the guild-members away. Are you kidding me? I've been waiting for more intelligent discussion and "debate" like this in the Yu Yu Hakusho guild! It took me a while longer than I really wanted to, to respond, but heavens this just called to me! Yay! I'll have to get right on my other ones, then. This will be so much more fun with someone to talk to about them!
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:30 am
I think I've actually done it. o.o I've found a reason for Kurama's idiotic timing in trying to die. Here we go! Sorry if I go back on previous statements, or repeat myself. I wrote it late at night. ^^;
The only logical reason I can fathom for Kurama's choice to die during Round 3 is that, in part, he thought he was a liability.
After his match with Roto, I think he spent a good while thinking about how readily he stopped fighting when his mother was threatened. Sure, he pulled the death plant on Roto and won, but I have the sneaking suspicion that had he been unable to do that, he'd have died rather than risk her. While he'd known that about himself already, I don't think it had occurred to him that a threat to his mother would happen in that setting (after all, no one is supposed to know who he really is). After that, he would have had to examine his own priorities, and would have come to the conclusion that any of his friends would be an unacceptable loss for him.
In his own way, Kurama is more self-sacrificing than even Yuusuke. When something is important to him, he'll throw his life away for it in a second. Hiei, he had known and cared about for some time already; Yuusuke, he owed his life and his happiness and had great admiration for; and Kuwabara, he respected and believed deserved life more than he. Without a qualm, he'd have ranked their safety above his own.
In a wonderfully circular logic path, the fact that he was willing to die for them meant he had to. As a demon, and in the setting of a demon tournament, this mindset was a major liability. If he could not stop himself from interfering and saving someone, he'd get them all killed -- and his opponents would be able to sense this weakness, he was sure. I don't think he would have lost his head and rescued someone without thinking, but I do think he knows how well he rationalizes and that he had already displayed too much sentimentality for the team's safety. Demons would use his friends against him, and I think he wasn't sure if he'd be able to fight under those circumstances -- not to mention that the moment he stopped doing so, those same demons could use him against his friends.
Yuusuke was the exact same way, with the exact same problem, and Kurama knew that. But he was a demon, and therefore it was patently unacceptable for him to have this weakness. Also, Yuusuke had to be there: Toguro wanted him and only him, so it didn't matter how impulsive and foolish the detective might be; and that kind of behavior was expected from humans, where it would be a surprise bonus once their enemies discovered it about Kurama.
He took it as one more thing that made him unfit to live, and decided to die before it could harm them all seriously. He was counting on two things: on Hiei's own lack of his same problem, and on Yuusuke's awareness of the stakes. He could not insult Hiei by assuming that the other demon would rank his own survival below anyone else's -- he considered his personal failure to put the bigger picture first as a weakness, and would not think to append it to Hiei. Yuusuke was the one with the highest stake in the entire event; the safety of everyone he knew was on the line. Kurama was hoping, I think, that Yuusuke would make the logical choice and choose to lose one friend rather than all of them, or at least that the hesitation of that choice would stall him until it was too late for him to be rash. To this end, he did his best to obfuscate his aims, and make Yuusuke think his death in the ring was the result of legitimate loss.
The funny thing was that it almost worked. Kurama came within a hair of dying, and clearly expected to die from the wounds he'd sustained and the death plant he'd sown in himself. That he didn't was probably a mere fluke. I have no doubt that Kurama could quietly die if he wanted to, and would need no help from anything -- he's got such fine-pointed control over his ki that he'd just have to will it. He needed, however, to die in the ring, the only place where the rest of them might accept his loss.
The reason he didn't just let the death plant do the work, when dying immediately failed to happen, was partly the other reason he decided to die in the first place: he knew Yuusuke well enough by that point to know how idealistic Yuusuke was, and was hoping that a jolt of reality would improve his concentration and his determination to win. It would also be a similar bolster for Kuwabara, and would force Hiei to plan at top form to get them all out alive. He expected that their team would lose a member somewhere along the line, and he'd much rather it be him, so that with their anger and grief pushing them along, hopefully no one else would die. Partly I attribute this attitude to a double-standard of vanity in knowing that they cared about him, and a sense of being the most worthless member of the team, who would be missed the least when it was all over.
When he woke on the sidelines, however, the moment for that was past and done. If he died then, it would have the opposite effect -- it would distract and demoralize the team. He was out of the fight by then, and it was only in a fight that the group expected anyone to die. A death outside that specific circumstance would come out of the proverbial left field and hurt their chances more than his absence would help.
This, to perform an incidental sidetrack, was exactly what happened when Genkai died later on. The effects on Kuwabara were too late to mess him up much, but Yuusuke almost couldn't continue. He became even more emotionally repressed, and repression was responsible for his difficulty in reaching his full power. Had Toguro not been inscrutable and merciful, this would have gotten Kuwabara killed as well.
Kurama didn't seem to think the team would have trouble finding an alternate, by the by, or he just assumed that anyone would be better than him due to his perceived weakness. Or perhaps he'd already known how friendly Chuu and Rinku would be, and thought one of them might step in to help; or even the member of the Ichigaki team who had already offered to do so. Either way, he was trusting (or at least hoping) that the team would find an alternate and be able to continue in the finals.
I do think that Kurama made an error in judging Yuusuke -- two, in fact. First, he was mistaken that Yuusuke would keep his head and remember that to throw the Tournament meant death for them all; Yuusuke was still willing to kill Bakken for him, regardless of that knowledge. He also misjudged Yuusuke's probable reaction to his death in the ring; the only reason Kuwabara seemingly dying unlocked the last of the Tantei's power was because Yuusuke had already lost someone. He needed to have had his ideals shattered already, or he'd have reacted to Kurama's death in the ring in the same way he reacted to Genkai's. These faulty assessments relate back to Kurama's odd tendency to judge Yuusuke by demon standards, which is why he as good as apologized to Yuusuke the first time he met him, for being weak enough to love his human mother. A demon would be both more logical and more prone to anger than Yuusuke ultimately was.
He judged Hiei perfectly, however. The demon could not have saved Kurama himself, it's true -- but all he had to do was see what Kurama was doing (not a hard task) and tell Yuusuke. If Hiei had felt an interference was warranted, he could have easily caused one, but he was fully aware that Yuusuke knew Yukina, and thus Yukina was in jeopardy the moment the team stepped outside the rules. Hiei was about to fire when Bakken nearly killed Kurama, but only because Yuusuke already was, and the next time he was willing to throw the Tournament it was only because he believed it was too late to win by the rules.
That's all I've got. Please tell me I make sense.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:50 pm
You make perfect sense Jasenae. I am not sure I could really take that all apart piece by piece because I agree with it. Sorry I can't go into intense detail on this, but there's not really a heck of a lot for me to analyze. You've pretty much said it all here Jesenae ^_^.
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:45 pm
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. I've thought of some more evidence to add to your theory as well: First, Kurama passes out standing up in the ring after defeating Touya. I understand that he was exhausted and had just tapped into his life energy to do so, but you'd think that it would take more energy to stand up than it would to collapse. I know it's possible for a dead body to remain standing due to adrenaline and other things (thank you, Case Closed) but Kurama wasn't dead. He didn't even need CPR, for goodness' sake. He knew by then that the committee would rule against them and that standing in the ring would elect him the next fighter. In all honesty, I think that Kurama thought he would die from his attack on Touya and either wanted to be ABSOLUTELY sure that he would be killed by whoever fought next or wanted Yusuke to see him in even more pain to motivate him more, and possibly both these things. Also, when Kurama is dodging Touya's attacks with the ice sword, he says, "It's time I take responsibility and make my stand." Now, knowing Kurama and his past actions there could have been millions of ways to interpret this. However, something I noticed while watching that episode the first time was that there wasn't really any reason for him to say that in context. In context, there was very little angst going on in the fight other than the fact that he was partly immobile--there was no moral need for him to stop the fight then and there. In context, it wasn't noble of him to take a stand at that moment, because the fight lasting a bit longer wasn't really detrimental to anyone else in any way. There wasn't a time limit on the damn thing. This makes me think, skeptical as I am that Kurama could be suicidal (believe me, you've changed my mind as well as possible on that), that Kurama was indeed attempting to sacrifice himself during the fight and that's what his little speech was referring to.
As for why he chose the 3rd round, I don't think that he had had better circumstances up until then. Considering what you guys talked about, Kurama wasn't convinced that he had to be sacrificed until at least the second round, correct? He had no way to sacrifice himself in the second round because he was fighting the robot with Hiei, and that immediate situation didn't really set up the sacrifice well enough. With the third round, it was perfect. No one in his/her right mind could say that the third round was fought fair, and most of us would assume that Team Urameshi would have lost. Two fighters against five? Without really knowing the other team's powers (which I realize Kurama probably did, but that's irrelevant because the presentation is what was important) it's easy to say that they would have lost. One teammate was beaten up far too badly to fight, the other two (one of those injured slightly as well) were unable to participate, and there was only Kurama and Yusuke. Kurama knew they could take Team Masho, but what was important is that this round was, of the two he fought in after making his decision, the easier one to get away with dying. Kurama knew that the only sure way his death would motivate the others and not just depress them would be to die in battle. In this setup, where they were so likely to lose (to the rest of the team, anyway) it would be likely that Kurama would die, especially if he was trying to make the way clear for Yusuke.
Another motivation for Kurama wanting to sacrifice himself in this part of the game could be that, aside from his human heart's weakness, he knew that he would never be able to take on whoever Toguro recruited. Up to that point they didn't know any other members of Team Toguro, but Kurama's smart enough to know that his Toguro's recruits would be almost as strong as Toguro himself. Later Kurama admits that without Yoko, he couldn't have beaten Karasu. For Kurama in this state of mind, having nearly lost to a demon because of his mother and realizing that he was a liability for the team, also seeing that he didn't have near enough power to fight Toguro's lackey on his own would be enough to make the decision to sacrifice himself for the good of the team. (This of course, makes you wonder whether Kurama had an idea that he would be able to revert back to Yoko during the course of the tournament or not. In the main we only see him training Kuwabara for the tournament, and never him training himself--the same goes for Hiei, but we do see him train while at the tournament--and compared to the others, Kurama does seem very weak during the first few rounds of the tournament. It's like he was counting on being able to change into Yoko, except that doesn't make sense because he fell for Uraurishima's trick so easily when he otherwise would have been on the lookout for that sort of thing.)
And I agree that after that Kurama wouldn't have tried to sacrifice himself because he knew battle was the only way to go--and as for the fourth round? Well, with Hiei able to act again he might have felt that he couldn't risk it, at least up until he fought Uraurishima. At that point he realized that he could utilize the Idunn Box or its ingredients to scrape through the final fight and suicide wouldn't have been an option for him at all. That, then, makes you wonder whether Kurama had no idea that Uraurishima was trapping him, or whether Kurama in fact knew that Ura was trying to lock him into the ring, even if he couldn't guess why. Even though Kurama's human captivity makes him more vulnerable to human emotion, I find it hard to believe that he would so openly believe Ura that way. Even during the first match, Roto asks Kurama if he believes in mercy, and Kurama answers coldly, "No." Yet he shows Ura a buttload of mercy based only on a telepathic conversation. It's possible (maybe not likely, but possible) that at this point Kurama was still not sure whether he was a liability and that the only thing that could shake him from this idea was the fact that he could transform into Yoko and had the possibility of doing it again for the final round.
So there's my two cents, sorry I took so long to read and answer this thread. biggrin
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:27 pm
Nifty! Yes, his line about making his stand does seem fishy all on its own, doesn't it? And the point about him figuring he was too weak to take on anyone from Team Toguro is a good one; I hadn't really considered that, but it does make sense. But he was on the team because he had to be -- no one on the guest team was given a choice, and it wasn't like he could up and leave.
As for Uraurishima, I've got a couple of theories. One, it might be that it's much more difficult to lie over telepathic connection than by other means. The minds have to be linked, and it's probably unholy difficult to control one's thoughts (except for Kurama, as he later proves when he fights Elder Toguro in the Sensui arc). If Ura was good enough to sound sincere over telepathy, that might have been enough for him to believe it.
Alternately, he didn't believe Ura and was in the process of Suicide Attempt #2. He didn't know about the Idunn Box just yet, so none of his reasons would have changed. He might have been reluctant to try it again because of Hiei, but my general theory runs to the fact that they probably had a very memorable talk after Round 3, during which Hiei verbally tore him a new one for his actions that entire round. When he knows that Hiei's telepathic as well, he could either assume that Hiei was monitoring his telepathic conversation with Ura and pretend that he was snowed under, because we know Kurama is that good at concealing his mental processes, or else he could have just done some old-fashioned acting and either intended to leave Hiei without explanation, or else had some plan in mind to let Hiei know what had happened. It wasn't too hard to figure out from context, anyway, since Ura referenced it tons right after.
The Idunn Box was something about which he didn't know, but if he deliberately let Ura temporarily disable him and trap him in the ring (where have we seen THIS before? Oh, ja), he knew Ura would have something or other to hit him with. The fact that he didn't even take a swipe at Ura when he was pulling the box out kind of speaks to the fact that he wanted it to affect him, without knowing that it would turn him back to his Youko form.
And you know, I'm kind of leaning on that second theory a bit more. It seems more like him.
But yes, I agree with you that after he found out about the Idunn Box, sacrificing himself was no longer the best option. Especially since the Youko form was able to act much more ruthless than his human form, it might have even seemed to be a way around the problem entirely. Now the other demons would no longer be able to count on him being weak-hearted, because hiding behind his Youko form gave him the ability to be as cruel as he needed to be. Also Shishiwakamaru was close enough to the fight that he knew Ura was about to spill the beans, so he was also close enough that he probably heard everything going on in there, so at least one team of demons knew that Youko wasn't inclined to act at all like human-Kurama. That sort of thing gets around pretty fast.
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:03 pm
I completely agree. Watching those episodes again, I find it extremely difficult to believe that Kurama had NO inkling that Ura was trapping him. I mean, fishing wire is difficult to see, but Kurama has done more amazing things before. I kept thinking, how can he not realize what's happening?
Perhaps he did know, and was seeing what Ura would do, which we know is typical of him, due to the way he usually fights--allowing the enemy to attack so that he can asses the enemy's plan and formulate his own against it. I've always wondered, then--was it mere luck that Kurama was the one to fight against Ura, or was something else working with it, whether it was one of the characters or some twisted sort of fate? The odds that Kurama, the only fighting member of that team for whom it was actually beneficial to revert to his younger (or older) self was the one who actually got to are pretty...well, insane. By the way, I always found it ridiculously irritating how Shishi got to kill Ura just like that without anyone noticing or penalizing him.
Now that this idea that Kurama's a suicidal glutton for punishment has gotten into my head, I can't help but consider him the martyr of the group, which is leeching into my fanfiction. It's pretty interesting, actually, because it's influencing the way I write about him. He's become the guilt-ridden martyr in my writing, and I wonder, do you think that's too extreme? Does he show any other tendencies of this sort of nature during the rest of the series, or is it just this one time in the tournament?
EDIT: More circumstantial evidence that supports that Kurama was actively allowing Ura to trap him during that fight is that, after thinking it over, I realized that it would have been easier for Kurama to die without Hiei being QUITE as suspicious (I'm sure Hiei would have been suspicious at any rate) in the fourth round due to the way they chose the matches; dice.
In the third round, Kurama chooses to fight the first two battles on his own, and as you've said, that alone would give Hiei reason to suspect. However, if his name came up on a dice, he would have had to fight and it wouldn't have been quite as strange for him to die in the ring, or at least they couldn't assume that he had done it on purpose seeing as his name had simply been rolled. So, I think you're right in saying that Kurama DIDN'T believe Ura and was allowing him to continue his plans to kill Kurama, or whatever, because he thought that he could get away with indirect suicide attempt two.
Also, I can't help but feel that Roto was some sort of conspiratorial plot, either by a character or by the canon gods, to reveal Kurama's weakness. He showed up at the tournament on the team of Chu, Zeru and Rinku. Now, Zeru was an idiot (as Hiei clearly proved) and the two nameless members were obviously weak, but Rinku and Chu end up being pretty strong, at least strong enough that they could both participate in the Makai Tournament and survive. And yet that stupid Roto had few powers; he could turn his finger into a claw, and he seemed to be at least faster than a sloth. Wow. He had only one thing that was a weapon, and that was Kurama's mother on the chopping block. How in the hell could anyone consider that to be a sound strategy for any round other than the first, when he happened to fight Kurama? It's possible that he was bluffing, and if he was, then bravo, because even Kurama fell for it, or at least he didn't want to take the risk. But seriously, how could he have possibly expected to make it past the second round with that technique? How many other demons in the tournament had mothers or relatives that they cared about, and how many brothers did he have to track them all? No, even a total moron would realize that that simply wouldn't do for more than one fight. And yet he joined the tournament anyway. Was he simply that idiotic, and did his teammates just not care since they had one too many members anyway? I know that neither Rinku nor Chu appears to be very intelligent (who the heck decides the order of fighters with Rock, Paper, Scissors, even if it is the first fight?), but COME ON. That's pathetic. So, I have two theories as to why Roto was allowed to leave the house with such a terrible plan. One is that Togashi needed a filler villain and simply wanted to develop Kurama's character more (which actually kind of supports your argument, because he could have been trying to set up Kurama's complex about being too weak to help the team anymore, making Roto a walking and talking [but never at the same time] deus ex machina.)
The other is that someone decided that it was important that Kurama's weakness be revealed, and paid Roto to join the team (or otherwise extorted him into joining with this stupid gambit.) I know that's pretty far-fetched and that there's absolutely no evidence to the theory, other than the fact that Roto's plan is terrifically stupid and that the tournament committee doesn't seem above something like this, as evidenced by, oh...EVERYTHING THEY EVER DID DURING THE WHOLE FREAKING TOURNAMENT.
Anyway, so that's what I think. Do you have any theories on why Roto was allowed to try the Dark Tournament with nothing but a dangerously long finger and a silly little button?
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