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 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:01 pm
reggiechan Am I the pro choice nightmare? I am a sixteen year old practicing Catholic who believes in the authority of the pope, is leaning towards being a republican or just not voting. I am anti abortion in all cases even in the case of the mothers life being in danger. My reason for that is that sense an unborn baby is clearly human and of course has done nothing wrong it would be murder* to kill it even to save your own life. Self defense only comes to play when the person is able to reason. Meaning that since an unborn baby can not think in the way that you and I can he* is not conscious of what he is doing even though he has a soul. Since he can not have done anything wrong due to the fact he can not yet reason he must be innocent. There for to kill him would be wrong. Another reason I suspect I would make the pro abortionists skin crawl is because I believe that birth control is morally wrong as well as premarital sex. I understand that many people here will not agree with me on this. Luckily to unite against a common enemy we do not need to agree on everything. Also I do not care about being political correct our not. I have been known to say “Damn political correctness.”. The thing is I am also against the death penalty at least for one reason. Mistrials, there will always be mistrials so I am against the death penalty. I am also against most wars. The only one that I might be able to see as justifiable was world war two because the Nazi’s were killing ,Jews, communists, homosexuals Catholics, many types of protestants along with many other religions, political parties and people.. How ever I still think America did evil things in the war. These are my stands on abortion and many other things. So what would the pro abortionists call me and how would they attack me?
-calling pro-choice 'pro-abortion'
-that you view pro-choicers as the 'enemy'
[staff edit]
It's upsetting to see that you seem to think that pro-choicers want every pregnancy to end in abortions, and that you don't stop to think (at least, this is what I gathered from your post) that pro-choicers are people too, and if there were a way to have a perfect world where abortions were never needed, then we'd be happy. Perhaps, instead of trying to 'unite' against the 'enemy' of pro-choicers, you should attempt to band with them and fight an even larger enemy; unwanted/unplanned pregnancies. There's no reason that sex ed couldn't be better then it is, even the abstinence-only kind, and only by getting out there and spreading the word about unwanted/unplanned pregnancies can we slow the rate of abortions.
I'm also upset that you seem to think that all pro-choicers are going to 'attack' you simply because you're pro-life. From what I've seen, pro-choice tends to be about tolerance to other's beliefs, so that even if someone doesn't agree with you, as long as they're not pushing you one way or another, then they can believe what they want.
[staff edit]
I would also like to point out that this is NOT what pro-choicers would consider the 'norm' for pro-lifers. She's pretty extreme. Especially with the no birth control, no pre-marital sex and no abortions ever, no exceptions.
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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:23 pm
I believe both sides have stereotypes and it's best we all try and break them (which is one purpose of the pro-life/pro-choice discussion forum).
It's hard to rid of stereotypes or stop thinking about them when it's all we hear.
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:42 am
I was a tad confused that this person use the preferred term of "Pro-Choice" in the beginning of their post, and then a less nice term later. I suppose it is because they are so "Anti-Politically-Correct"? Somehow, I have a feeling that this person would be offended by the less nice terms that some people use to describe people who are Pro-Life.
My nightmares all have to do with zombies. So, unless this person is a zombie, they have nothing to do with my nightmares. (Sometimes my good dreams have to do with debating abortion - and one time I dreamed about being pregnant and debating abortion while preparing for a zombie attack. *wink*)
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:30 am
It makes me so sad when people refer to either the Pro-Choice ("Pro-Abortion" or "Anti-Life") side or the Pro-Life ("Anti-Choice" or "Anti-Woman") side using derogatory names. I think it is just so completely and utterly unhelpful. Such an attitude is only going to create more anger. I don't know about other people, but when someone refers to me in a derogatory manner, I find it difficult to focus on anything else they say. Even if they have valid points, I'm caught up in the fact that they don't feel the need to be respectful towards me. This is why I personally try very hard to refer to Pro-Life individuals as Pro-Life; I know that this is their preference, the name they have chosen to represent their position, and I want to respect that.
For me it's not a matter of being "politically correct." It's about being aware that I don't like it when people refer to me using names that I find to be insulting, even if said people insist that it is okay for them to disregard my feelings because the insulting names they have come up with are "more accurate." If I don't like this being done to me, what basis do I have for doing this to someone else?
It also disheartens me when one side decides the other is "the enemy." I feel that such labels only encourage dehumanization and makes it more likely that someone is going to get hurt. After all, if the person I'm hurting is nothing more than "the enemy," if they are wholly Other, then it is easier to justify doing bad things to them. You are not my enemy. Instead, you are simply a person who disagrees with me. If you consider me to be your enemy, then I am sad because I never had any intention of becoming such.
I'll try to come back and deal with the other content within the post later, when I've manage to distance myself a little from the language used. I'll either edit in my response or make a new post, depending on if anyone else has responded yet.
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:26 pm
There's a big 'semantics' argument happening in the ADT right now about whether it's okay to call the 'enemy' derogatory names. Things like whether 'anti-choice' is an appropriate term, and whether or not it's more appropriate then something like 'pro-abortion'.
*sigh* Those so-called 'pro-choicers' in there just seem to like perpetuating things without any thought towards how much anger they're creating.
I agree with Shadow Ice ... I find that if someone comes at me with derogatory names, whether they're accurate or not, I don't tend to see their points, whether they're valid or not, because all I can see is that they're coming at me thinking that I don't deserve any respect, for whatever reason.
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:06 pm
lymelady Though I will comment on something. No one's going to listen to you if you call them the enemy. They're also not going to listen if you call them pro-abortion. I know that's technically correct because it means supporting the legalization of abortion, but it annoys people. There is a practical reason to be sensitive to the feelings of other people, and that is because otherwise, why should they respect you? Why should they listen to you? It creates a loop where you end up preaching to the choir because no one else will listen. You won't like hearing anti-choice (you will though). You might brush it off, but it's frustrating when you try to make a point and are greeted with disrespect. Why do it to someone else? I know that's not your intention, but it offends them, and it's good to avoid not to be PC but just for the sake of cooperation. Without cooperation, a debate is pointless in a place like Gaia where there's no one judging and moderating debates. Most people who are pro-choice see legalized abortion as the lesser of two evils. They want to help people. That's a noble goal, worth respect.
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:45 pm
ShadowIce lymelady Though I will comment on something. No one's going to listen to you if you call them the enemy. They're also not going to listen if you call them pro-abortion. I know that's technically correct because it means supporting the legalization of abortion, but it annoys people. There is a practical reason to be sensitive to the feelings of other people, and that is because otherwise, why should they respect you? Why should they listen to you? It creates a loop where you end up preaching to the choir because no one else will listen. You won't like hearing anti-choice (you will though). You might brush it off, but it's frustrating when you try to make a point and are greeted with disrespect. Why do it to someone else? I know that's not your intention, but it offends them, and it's good to avoid not to be PC but just for the sake of cooperation. Without cooperation, a debate is pointless in a place like Gaia where there's no one judging and moderating debates. Most people who are pro-choice see legalized abortion as the lesser of two evils. They want to help people. That's a noble goal, worth respect.
Haha, you beat me to it. I was going to quote her and stick her in here too! Either way, it's an excellent post, with excellent points. Thanks Lymelady!
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:13 am
All righty, here I go again. I will leave out all references to "pro-abortion" and "the enemy" language because I have previously discussed it.reggiechan Am I the pro choice nightmare? I am a sixteen year old practicing Catholic who believes in the authority of the pope, is leaning towards being a republican or just not voting. I am anti abortion in all cases even in the case of the mothers life being in danger. reggiechan My reason for that is that sense an unborn baby is clearly human reggiechan and of course has done nothing wrong it would be murder* to kill it even to save your own life. Self defense only comes to play when the person is able to reason.
Honestly, I don't think self-defense has anything to do with whether or not what you are defending yourself against can reason.reggiechan Meaning that since an unborn baby can not think in the way that you and I can he* is not conscious of what he is doing even though he has a soul. reggiechan Since he can not have done anything wrong due to the fact he can not yet reason he must be innocent. There for to kill him would be wrong. reggiechan Another reason I suspect I would make the pro abortionists skin crawl reggiechan is because I believe that birth control is morally wrong as well as premarital sex. I understand that many people here will not agree with me on this. Luckily to unite against a common enemy we do not need to agree on everything. reggiechan The thing is I am also against the death penalty at least for one reason. Mistrials, there will always be mistrials so I am against the death penalty. reggiechan I am also against most wars. The only one that I might be able to see as justifiable was world war two because the Nazi’s were killing ,Jews, communists, homosexuals Catholics, many types of protestants along with many other religions, political parties and people.. How ever I still think America did evil things in the war. reggiechan These are my stands on abortion and many other things. So what would the pro abortionists call me and how would they attack me?
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:25 pm
I'm a big advocate of respect in the abortion debate. I always try and hold myself to a high degree of empathy and understanding for the other side, while also making clear my points.
I think my favorite debate with a choicer I had was with ShadowIce(<3). We spent the whole discussion respectfully debating, while the other pro-choice people who were there commenced calling me anti-woman, etc. I'll debate with choicers who decide that even though they disagree with me, they still respect me enough not to judge me based on the fact that I'm pro-life. I've never used terms like anti-life, pro-baby-killing, etc, because it just adds fuel to the fire of an already emotional debate.
The challenge, when talking about abortion, and anything really, is having a degree of understanding for the individual you're talking with. Easier said than done for some.
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:36 pm
McPhee I'm a big advocate of respect in the abortion debate. I always try and hold myself to a high degree of empathy and understanding for the other side, while also making clear my points.
I think my favorite debate with a choicer I had was with ShadowIce(<3). We spent the whole discussion respectfully debating, while the other pro-choice people who were there commenced calling me anti-woman, etc. I'll debate with choicers who decide that even though they disagree with me, they still respect me enough not to judge me based on the fact that I'm pro-life. I've never used terms like anti-life, pro-baby-killing, etc, because it just adds fuel to the fire of an already emotional debate.
The challenge, when talking about abortion, and anything really, is having a degree of understanding for the individual you're talking with. Easier said than done for some.
*big smile*
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:56 pm
McPhee I'm a big advocate of respect in the abortion debate. I always try and hold myself to a high degree of empathy and understanding for the other side, while also making clear my points.
I think my favorite debate with a choicer I had was with ShadowIce(<3). We spent the whole discussion respectfully debating, while the other pro-choice people who were there commenced calling me anti-woman, etc. I'll debate with choicers who decide that even though they disagree with me, they still respect me enough not to judge me based on the fact that I'm pro-life. I've never used terms like anti-life, pro-baby-killing, etc, because it just adds fuel to the fire of an already emotional debate.
The challenge, when talking about abortion, and anything really, is having a degree of understanding for the individual you're talking with. Easier said than done for some.
Anyway, this is a prime example of why I think it is so incredibly important for people to be respectful to one another in a debate. A year from now, what do you want the person you debated with to say about his/her encounter with you? That you both had a rational, respectful discussion? Or that you ran around calling him/her nasty names? Even if you don't care about how a person is affected (effected? arg!) by being called terrible names and otherwise disrespected, how are such actions going to make you and your position appear to an outsider looking in? Not good, let me assure you.
I was in a situation once where I held a minority view in a debate where the majority felt no need to be kind and respectful (the debate was not about abortion, it was about religion). Let me assure you, I did not leave that debate with an increased inclination to change my views. Instead, I vowed to never have a conversation with those people again. I actually gave up debating entirely for a while. I was as strong in my beliefs as I was before, but I had no intention of putting myself in a situation where I was going to put up with such treatment again. So when I see situations like where McPhee was being called names, I am saddened. The Pro-Choice position is not strengthened by people who run around making Pro-Lifers not want to engage in the discussion.
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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:14 pm
Now that's what I love to hear, dears.
Y'alls make me have hope for humanity, in general. Not to mention pro-choicers. heart
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