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 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:34 pm
Okay, basically it has come back to we disagree, and I still can't really understand.
The main problem is that the only thing that is really like pregnancy is pregnancy. We're never going to agree on an example of something that is like pregnancy or abortion, because nothing else is like those things, and no matter what the analogy is, one of us is going to find a large flaw in it.
I'm stuck, because I keep trying to find a situation that is like pregnancy (and there aren't any) where I would agree more with the Pro-Life sort of view of things than I do on abortion. And, of course, I just can't.
It comes down to, I just believe differently, and probably always will. And this might forever get in my way of seeing what the Pro-Life viewpoint is, no matter how hard I try. *pout*
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:58 pm
WatersMoon110 Except that pushing someone off a roof is actively attempting to harm them. Women looking to get elective abortions were not having sex (with contraceptives, one hopes) with the intention of getting pregnant. They, rather obviously, did not and do not want to be pregnant. Yes, pregnancy is a biological function of the female body. But it being natural doesn't mean that the woman should naturally have to consent to it, and allow the unborn human to use her body. Rape is, after all, natural (you got to compare abortion to throwing someone off a roof, therefore I am comparing pregnancy to something distasteful as well), but no one would argue that it being natural makes it right. And yes, I do see the difference between pregnancy and rape, and yes, I do believe that pregnancy is almost never as mentally traumatizing as rape.
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:03 pm
Beware the Jabberwock I wasn't attempting to compare pregnancy to pushing someone off a roof. I was just explaining why self defense can't work in the mothers situation. In general terms, not in a "This is like pregnancy!" way. Oh, well then, that is fair. Non-life saving abortions are not a matter of self-defense, in my opinion. Just a matter of bodily integrity.
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:25 pm
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock I wasn't attempting to compare pregnancy to pushing someone off a roof. I was just explaining why self defense can't work in the mothers situation. In general terms, not in a "This is like pregnancy!" way. Oh, well then, that is fair. Non-life saving abortions are not a matter of self-defense, in my opinion. Just a matter of bodily integrity.
I had a debate with a pro-choice and in the end it basically went around in circles by the end of it. The problem for a lot of it is, I think, that the idea of what is moral is different. For pro-lifers we don't think it's morally acceptable for a woman to cause someone to have a new life, and then to kill it because she doesn't actually want to deal with it. Whereas pro-choicers don't believe it's morally acceptable to expect a woman to keep a pregnancy if she doesn't want it, because it is in her body.
I have found though, that the people who are most likely to be accepting of the other viewpoint are the people who truely believe abortion has everything to do with bodily integrity. What I mean by that are the people who are completely opposed to elective abortion being illegal if things such as artificial wombs become an option for women, because they don't want "their DNA" to be in the world, are actually the people who are the most vicious.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that, the people who are truely for abortion because they feel it is the morally correct option, and want it to be legal because they believe it is the best thing for women, are actually MORE understand when someone else has a different viewpoint, than people who want abortion legal simply for themselves. I find that very interesting, however I suppose it makes sense on a level as people who only want abortion to be legal for themselves, probably take our trying to make it illegal, on a more person level. Like we're trying to hurt them. Whereas people who want it to be legal because they believe it's the right thing to do, recognize that other people have a right to other opinions and respect that.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:22 pm
Beware the Jabberwock WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock I wasn't attempting to compare pregnancy to pushing someone off a roof. I was just explaining why self defense can't work in the mothers situation. In general terms, not in a "This is like pregnancy!" way. Oh, well then, that is fair. Non-life saving abortions are not a matter of self-defense, in my opinion. Just a matter of bodily integrity.
I had a debate with a pro-choice and in the end it basically went around in circles by the end of it. The problem for a lot of it is, I think, that the idea of what is moral is different. For pro-lifers we don't think it's morally acceptable for a woman to cause someone to have a new life, and then to kill it because she doesn't actually want to deal with it. Whereas pro-choicers don't believe it's morally acceptable to expect a woman to keep a pregnancy if she doesn't want it, because it is in her body.
I have found though, that the people who are most likely to be accepting of the other viewpoint are the people who truely believe abortion has everything to do with bodily integrity. What I mean by that are the people who are completely opposed to elective abortion being illegal if things such as artificial wombs become an option for women, because they don't want "their DNA" to be in the world, are actually the people who are the most vicious.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that, the people who are truely for abortion because they feel it is the morally correct option, and want it to be legal because they believe it is the best thing for women, are actually MORE understand when someone else has a different viewpoint, than people who want abortion legal simply for themselves. I find that very interesting, however I suppose it makes sense on a level as people who only want abortion to be legal for themselves, probably take our trying to make it illegal, on a more person level. Like we're trying to hurt them. Whereas people who want it to be legal because they believe it's the right thing to do, recognize that other people have a right to other opinions and respect that.You know, that is actually just as strange a viewpoint to me as any aspect of the Pro-Life stance, maybe even more so. I don't see how anyone could really feel that they own "their DNA" and so have the "right" to kill off their unborn offspring, even if another option (fetal transplant surgery or artificial wombs) were available. I don't really see that, I mean, I share the majority of my DNA with my siblings, and 1/2 of it with each of my parents. Sort of similar are the Pro-Lifers who want abortion to be illegal not really because they think it is immoral, but because they don't want any woman to be able to kill off "their son" (someone actually said that to me on another site, though I suppose they could have been lying about it, they seemed sincere). It was about them reproducing their own DNA, and not about any caring for any other unborn human (or born human). But I know, from the wonderful people in this Guild (and especially in this SubForum) that this view is not very common. I hope that the Pro-Choice view you mentioned is also not a very common one, I like to think that it is not. Maybe some people can really only see the world in how it can benefit them, personally, and not try to understand that we need to try and find the solutions that are best for everyone. Also, on a slightly related note, it really needs to become easier for women to get themselves sterilized. Then, such people who never want to replicate can practically assure that they never will (are there age limits and child limits placed by doctors on men who want to be sterilized? I don't know if it is as hard for young men to get the procedure as for young women).
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:49 pm
I'm not sure if it's as hard for men. I know that my mother's boyfriend got a vacestomy after his first child (his ex-wife is kind of a drama queen and told him that she almost died in child birth. He didn't find out until afterwards when he was dating my mom that everything his wife told him about it was normal birthing stuff. She did the same thing later when she decided she had cancer) and he was pretty young. Like early 20's. Which is kind of sad because he loves kids.
Anyway, that was a good... 20-25 years ago so it may have changed as well. I'm not sure.
I agree with you though it should be easier to get sterilized. I mean if someone changes their mind afterward they can always adopt. People should have to adopt a child for every child they give birth to, anyway.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:36 pm
Beware the Jabberwock People should have to adopt a child for every child they give birth to, anyway. Which would give that "Quiverfull" family with 13 kids, what, 26 children total? I want to adopt an older sibling group (of no more than 3 or 4 children), and I don't want to give birth to more than 2 children, so I would be winning your little game. *bwahaha*
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:58 pm
WatersMoon110 Beware the Jabberwock People should have to adopt a child for every child they give birth to, anyway. Which would give that "Quiverfull" family with 13 kids, what, 26 children total? I want to adopt an older sibling group (of no more than 3 or 4 children), and I don't want to give birth to more than 2 children, so I would be winning your little game. *bwahaha*
I'm the same way, I want to have two MAYBE 3 of my own kids, and I want to adopt a bunch as well. I'm going to end up with a s**t-load of kids (I'm from a huge family, not immediate but cousins and stuff, so the thought of having a small one has never really entered my mind) but it'll be nice.
My only thing is if I'm adopting I will NOT be adopting newborns. If I don't have to deal with diapers and waking up 90 times a night, I'm not going to. XD I think siblings would be nice. I wanted to adopt kids with emotional problems but my boyfriend's brother (who is also adopted) has severe problems probably due to his mother doing drugs whilst pregnant. Also I think she practically abandoned him once he was born, he wasn't adopted until he was 3 1/2, and by then he'd been taken from his mother's care, had his grandparents take care of him and realize they couldn't so they finally gave him up. Anyway this kid is really messed up, in a lot of different ways, and so JP is really opposed to adopting someone with emotional problems because he sees what his parents have gone through. sad
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:18 am
Beware the Jabberwock XD Or maybe they'd just have LESS kids? Hopefully! That would be nice. Though, to be fair, many of those families can at least afford to care for all of their kids, which is important. Beware the Jabberwock I'm the same way, I want to have two MAYBE 3 of my own kids, and I want to adopt a bunch as well. I'm going to end up with a s**t-load of kids (I'm from a huge family, not immediate but cousins and stuff, so the thought of having a small one has never really entered my mind) but it'll be nice.
My only thing is if I'm adopting I will NOT be adopting newborns. If I don't have to deal with diapers and waking up 90 times a night, I'm not going to. XD I think siblings would be nice. I wanted to adopt kids with emotional problems but my boyfriend's brother (who is also adopted) has severe problems probably due to his mother doing drugs whilst pregnant. Also I think she practically abandoned him once he was born, he wasn't adopted until he was 3 1/2, and by then he'd been taken from his mother's care, had his grandparents take care of him and realize they couldn't so they finally gave him up. Anyway this kid is really messed up, in a lot of different ways, and so JP is really opposed to adopting someone with emotional problems because he sees what his parents have gone through. sad I don't want to adopt newborns because I figure that other people will adopt them. I actually kind of like babies, or at least I liked my nephew when he was a baby (haven't really gotten to know too many others). I wouldn't want to adopt any children that have severe problems, because I don't believe I would do a good job taking care of them. There are some emotional problems (depression, anxiety, ptsd) that I think I could handle, since I've been through them myself. And physical disabilities would be a possibility depending on how bad they are (my cousin was in a wheel chair, and something like that would be okay, but I don't think I could deal with, say, someone who would have to wear a diaper their entire life - or need a lot of physical care for the rest of their life). I just couldn't handle too much physical dependency from an older child, I'm just not that good a person, I feel. It's a bad trait, I think, but better that a special needs child be placed with someone who can care for them properly than with me, where I might not be good enough to give them the care they need.
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