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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:47 pm
Wiccan Clarinet No, Paganism is not a religion, but Wicca is, and Wicca is based largely on Paganism. That's all I was getting at. Wicca isn't based on paganism. Wicca is a pagan religion that's losely based on various pagan religions. To say it is based on paganism implies that it is based on every single religion that is not Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Paganism = Any non-Abrahamic religion. That aside, let me point out an important bit of that Wikipedia article for you that you may have overlooked: Wiki Samhain is the word for November in the Gaelic languages. The Scottish Gaelic spelling is Samhainn or Samhuinn (for the feast), or an t-Samhain (for the month). The Festival of Samhain is a celebration of the end of the harvest season in Gaelic culture, and is generally regarded as 'The Celtic New Year. And to another section of the same article: Wiki Popular and scholarly literature over the last century has given birth to the near-universal assumption that Samhain was the 'Celtic New Year'. Some historians have begun to question this belief. In his study of the folk calendar of the British Isles, Stations of the Sun, historian Ronald Hutton writes that there are no references earlier than the 18th century, in either church or civic records, which attest to this usage. [7] Although it may be correct to refer to Samhain as 'Summer's End', this point of descent into the year's darkness may need better proof for us to cite this 'end' as also being a definitive 'beginning'. Whether or not the ancient Celts saw Samhain as the beginning of the year, or just one turning point among others in the cycle of the seasons, Samhain is still largely regarded as the Celtic New Year in the living Celtic cultures, both in the Six Celtic Nations and the diaspora. For instance, the contemporary calendars produced by the Celtic League begin and end at Samhain. [8]Wiccan Thank you, Wikipedia, for proving my point. It may have been the end of the harvest, but it was also regarded as the new year. Was? No, it wasn't. Read your own WikiQuote... It is commonly regarded as such--modern times. This is also an appeal to popularity, and I'm wondering if it ought to be challenged in this article. Wiccan And it is the basis for Halloween. And, as it also says above, it was the first three days of November. November 1st happens to be the fist day of the first three days of the month, in case that slipped your mind, and I know, through my own knowledge, which is quite obviously valid, that is begins precisely at 3 am. And where are you deriving this knowledge from, pray tell? Wikipedia's etymology is off on this article. The ancient Celtic Irish pagans did not follow the Julian calendar. They followed a lunar/astronomical calendar. Sam Fuin = Summer's End. The Lunar cycle might popularly fall on November 1st, but there is no doubt room for error on that, because it is not entirely absolute what lunar phases fall on which Julian calendar date. Because the date is not absolute, I highly doubt that the time you claim Samhain celebrations started is either.
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:06 pm
Wow. You're actually arguing with Wikipedia. You stand there telling me that you know more than an online enclyclopedia. I don't know if I should laugh or not. It's actually quite amusing.
Paganism pretty much means that it is a religion that does not follow any other religion. Is Wicca, therefore, not a Pagan religion? Yes, it is. So how is Wicca not based on Paganism?
Were you around in the time of the Celts? I highly doubt it. So how can you say how they regarded the holiday? Wiki said that it is "Generally regarded as the new year." That sounds to me like the thought of it as the new year. And maybe they didn't. As I said before, I'm not here to argue what the Celts believed. I'm here to argue how Halloween relates to evil. Maybe it is a coincidence that Samhain HAPPENS to be the day after Halloween, although I doubt it, just going off the books I've read and other Wiccans that I've spoken to. I'm not the only Wiccan who regards Samhain as the new year. And even the Current Celts, not just the ancient ones, see it as the New year. PirateEire Wikipedia Samhain is still largely regarded as the Celtic New Year in the living Celtic cultures, both in the Six Celtic Nations and the diaspora. For instance, contemporary calenders produced by the Celtic League begin and end at Samhain.
I never once said that they followed the Julian calendar. If I did not have access to a day-tracking device, I'd use moon and sun phases too. For the record, we generally don't follow the Julian calendar either, we follow the Gregorian. Whatever. That's beside the point. Did the birth of Christ happen exactly on the 25th of December? Likely not, considering that they were going off a different calendar in that time period. Yet, December 25 is still regarded as Christmas. So whether is was November 1 or it was February 16 or any other day of the year, we generally regard Samhain as November 1 ish (between the 1st and the 3rd) the same was as we regard Christmas as December 25 even though that probably was not the right day.
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Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:15 pm
Pirate IS Irish y'know.
i'm not about to debate the true meaning of Guy Fawkes' Day with a Briton.
i think the same principle applies here.
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:04 am
Wiccan Clarinet Wow. You're actually arguing with Wikipedia. You stand there telling me that you know more than an online enclyclopedia. I don't know if I should laugh or not. It's actually quite amusing. Well, for starters, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. I only trust what I see there if their resources are referenced. "Generally regarded" is speculation, and does not belong in an encyclopedia. It's a sweeping generalization, and an appeal to popularity--both no-noes in logic. That aside, if you'd kindly read my response again, I used the article you linked to argue my points. Wiccan Clarinet Paganism pretty much means that it is a religion that does not follow any other religion. Is Wicca, therefore, not a Pagan religion? Yes, it is. So how is Wicca not based on Paganism? Wicca is a pagan religion. Paganism is not in and of itself a religion. It's an umbrella term for all religions that are not Abrahamic. That means that Satanism is a pagan religion. By some definitions, Buddhism is a pagan religion. Scientology is a pagan religion. These things are all included under "paganism." Wicca is not based off of something that it is. Rather than saying that Wicca is based off of Paganism, it would be far better to say that Wicca derived a lot of its theology from pre-Christian Celtic religions. It's certainly more specific. Gardner did not take from one single religion--he took from many and added a bit of his own silliness. Wiccan Clarinet Were you around in the time of the Celts? I highly doubt it. So how can you say how they regarded the holiday? Wiki said that it is "Generally regarded as the new year." That sounds to me like the thought of it as the new year. Bolded the keyword that you appear to be ignoring. It is generally regarded as the pagan new year. This implies that those who celebrate Samhain modern day regard it as such. As for the ancient Celts, well, who knows. There's no conclusive evidence either way, so it's a tad risque to claim that they did, without a doubt, celebrate it as a new year. Wiccan Clarinet And maybe they didn't. As I said before, I'm not here to argue what the Celts believed. I'm here to argue how Halloween relates to evil. Maybe it is a coincidence that Samhain HAPPENS to be the day after Halloween, although I doubt it, just going off the books I've read and other Wiccans that I've spoken to. I'm not the only Wiccan who regards Samhain as the new year. And even the Current Celts, not just the ancient ones, see it as the New year. Hence the "is." But I would refrain from making wild claims about my ancestors. It scrapes a nerve or two. And it is no coincidence. All Hallow's Eve is a Christian holiday that the Catholic church once celebrated in spring, but for unknown reasons, moved to the end of October. It's speculated that it was moved to coincide with the Irish Samhain to convert the pagans to Christianity. Wiccan Clarinet I'm deriving my knowledge from the books that I have read (I know you will ask for titles, don't bother because they were my cousins books, I read them years ago, and I don't have access to them to quote titles) and from other Wiccans that I have spoken to or heard speak. If it was Ravenwolf, I have no reason to regard your sources as legitimate, since she lied about her lineage and is largely responsible for making people under the legal age of consent think that they can at all be Wiccans, and for making them think that it's a tree-hugging polytheistic nature religion, instead of an initiatory oath-bound mystery religion, and a fertility cult at that. Gardner's own words. Wiccan Clarinet I never once said that they followed the Julian calendar. If I did not have access to a day-tracking device, I'd use moon and sun phases too. For the record, we generally don't follow the Julian calendar either, we follow the Gregorian. Whatever. That's beside the point. Did the birth of Christ happen exactly on the 25th of December? Likely not, considering that they were going off a different calendar in that time period. Yet, December 25 is still regarded as Christmas. --to coincide with the pagan yule. Jesus was born in March, if he existed at all, as per the astrology described in the Bible. The point is, Samhain did not start at a specific time on a specific date on our calendars. So, it's a tad odd of you to say that they somehow ended up starting the celebrations every year on November 1st, at 3:00 AM. If it reoccurred on the ancient Celts' calendars at the same time, it would not happen on our's at the same time. Wiccan Clarinet So whether is was November 1 or it was February 16 or any other day of the year, we generally regard Samhain as November 1 ish (between the 1st and the 3rd) the same was as we regard Christmas as December 25 even though that probably was not the right day. So now you're claiming that there's not an exact date and time? I guess I'll consider that a concession of your original claim then.
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