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 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:13 am
Wow, you made a lot of better points than I did.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:33 pm
I've got to run in a few minutes, but I'll try to get as much as I can down for what you said, Narc. I respect your opinion, as well, and I appreciate that you respect mine. : )
Before hitting those points, I'd just like to say something about other things in the thread I have read. I'm not overly religous at all. I believe in God, sure, but that doesn't make me a very religous person. I am also planning to major in biology once I hit college, and I'm pretty educated in that subject as far as my level in school goes. In fact, biology is my second best subject, only behind english due to my grandpa hammering grammar rules into my head at a very young age. So, that stereotype doesn't seem to fit me at all. I'm pro-life, but not overly religous and I have a pretty good grasp on the scientifical world. Granted, I'm not the best chem student out there, but that doesn't mean I don't have a basic knowledge of it.
Oh, and as a slight note for you, Narc - I'm not a fan of the morning after pill, nor am I a fan of any birth control pill. It does precisely what abortion does: terminate an already conceived baby. So, I'm consistent in that view, I promise. Hoooowever, I'm not against other forms of birth control, such as condoms and products that don't let the conception occur. (Of course, there's always that chance it's not going to work very well, but at least you're trying if you're using them.) I'm pretty against sex in high school, as I believe anyone that young doesn't really need to be screwing around.
1. To answer that one, simply adoption. Yes, the baby is dependent on the mother. So is a dog. When you don't want a dog, you don't kill it. You give it away. The mother can do the same with a baby, especially if that kid is the result of her own sex life.
2. Rape is an absolutely horrible thing, and it has horrible effects on the victim. I can't say that enough. To me, one the most disgusting crimes any person can commit is a rape. It not only forces someone into a sexual act, it traumatizes them and takes away all control. It is as much of a mental attack as a physical attack. I do realize that the mere act of carrying the baby could potentially push some women over the edge. For those who can mentally handle a pregnancy, the answer is quite obvious: adoption. I realize that the foster home system isn't the best thing in the world, but an infant going in to the system, especially a newborn, has a great chance of being adopted. For those mentally unstable victims, science itself gives an answer. When under large amounts of stress, pregnant women's bodies often reject a baby without any doctors aiding the process. A woman suffering Post Dramatic Stress Syndrome would easily have those high stress levels.
The unhealthy infant, I completely forgot to address that one. You don't, or at least I don't, throw away a life simply because it's banged up a little. That'd be like telling someone who lost a leg in a car wreck to just roll over and die. Sure, they'll have it rough. Sure, it'll be hard. But there's still life there, and it can be a relatively good one if they make it good. Some of the most optimistic people I know are impared in some fashion. These people have a unique view on life, one that is to be admired. Of course, not all crippled act thsi way. Some become very bitter, but then again, many perfectly healthy people are bitter as well. When it comes to a dead baby/stillborn, the mother's body and biology take control in the form of a miscarriage. My mom went through two of them before she had me, and I am aware that it can be a very low blow emotionally for any woman trying to have children. However, abortion is not neccesary in these cases, as the body will simpley reject the dead/dying baby.
3. I agree with you on all accounts on this one. Except, of course, for the pill bit, but I've already said something about that. People do want the easy way, and that disgusts me in this issue. Life isn't easy, and if they were screwing around, they need to accept the consiquences. If all they end up is pregnant, they should be happy. I'd rather have a kid and give it to an adoption program than get something like AIDs and be stuck with it for the rest of my life, never knowing how long I'll live.
4. I realize that, and there are shetlers for women who are thrown out of their families for being pregnant. A life in a shelter is not a happy one, I know. There are also other members of family for the lucky ones, or friends, etc. There is always another option. Plus, might I add, that the parents of any pregnant teen who throws their own daughter into the street are complete scumbags in my opinion. To throw your own kid on the street must take a certain level of arrogance that I really don't understand. There are jobs out there that hire people without a high school education. That's how teenagers get jobs, after all. They're minimum wage, but they're at least something, y'know? Plus, people can always go back to school. Even people who didn't go through a teen pregnancy do it all the time.
5. I know it was never illegal, and I can't find you're point in that paragraph... Perhaps it's due to my rushing. Would you mind explaing it to me? If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine. I'm just a little confused, and it's more than likely my fault. Sorries.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:24 pm
2. And how, exactly, does caring the fetis to term and giving birth to it, going to help the rape victim? It isn't. It only makes it worse. You don't care about the rape victim. There is no telling what a rape mother, that is forced to keep her baby will do.
I love how all the pro-life people fail to actually put themselves into the raped person's shoes. Just oh no, lets ruin the mothers life by making her be pregnent for 9 months, without looking at the reality that that person will have to take time off of work, and depending on your job that can result in being fired. Or a college student taking time off. Yeah, lets suspend her school so that yet another unwanted baby can come into this world.
3. Against teenage pregnency. That is part of my stupidity is my biggest pet-peeeve. I still think that if they get pregnent, it is her body and life, so she should deside.
4. Shelters are already crowded, there is already a waiting list in places like NY. Does a teenager really need to go through that? Minimum wage even with welfare, will barely pay for car/gas/house. Yeah, except going back to school requires money, which so long as she is raising a child by herself, she wont have. She could always wait 18 years, til it moves out, but then how is she going to afford her childs school (hopefully) and take care of herself unless she gets a better job, but inorder for her to get a better job she needs her education. So she should hold off on the childs education or her education? It's gonna be to expensive for them to both be going to school at the same time, the mother can't get a schoolarship. And even with financial aid and maybe a schoolarship for the child, college can still end up costing. Put never fear, she can end up working for the rest of her life, to support that child. Basically all you do, is instead of ending one fetis, you doom two lives to a misserable exsistance.
Do you relize how over crowded adoption centers would get if abortions were illegal. They would start turning down kids, because they are out of beds. Be realistic.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:31 pm
i would think abortion would be bad, but in some cases people do it for the right reasons. lets put it in a situation when a women was pregnant and was not able to raise her child on her own. in that case abortion is a good thing to me it depends on the situation. but for me if she didnt want the child in the first place why did she have to go and do it? also if i was put in that situation i would have the child and put it up for adoption, but in the other hand i would not like giving a child away to someone you dontt know.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:43 pm
So sexist. If a guy doesn't want a child why does he go an do it? The only difference is that they guy can run.
If the mother isn't able to raise the child on her own then she can put it up for adoption.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:03 pm
Prolife, I believe that everyone should have a chance of life, because if someone was raped it isnt the babies fault, or the mother its the man. Wouldnt Abortion makes them worse? then better because there is known to give depression.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:31 pm
We've already been over that about 3 times in this topic. I'm not going to repeat myself again.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:00 am
marshjazz Remove:
So your moderate?
Nycus:
Yeah, I also find that alot of pro-life people are religious. I took biology two years ago and got mostly C's in it, but it was a hard course for me, cause I'm more of a Chemistry person. It just seems really weird how that is. I guess, I won't stop people having it but I will never agree with it. Abortion was Illegal here. They made it legal due to the amount of women doing themselves damage on the black market. Also here, there are hundred of people waiting to adopt babies but no where near enough babies being given away (because of abortion and people keeping their kids) that people aren't able to bring up a child when they would like to. However I must disagree with the Pill because its actually hormones, it stops your cycle from happening, at least mine does though I don't use it as contraception. It stops the cycle from happening so no egg is released, so its not terminating a pregnancy if no egg has been released, though I don't know about the morning after pill. Also I think the laws on abortion are unfair to men, some guys really do want to be fathers and are willing to bring the kid up on their own but because a women doesn't want to go through a birth they abort a kid. I personally think that is unfair because though yes its the womans body the thing inside her is only half hers.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:30 am
She lay down on the grass,
Looking up at the sky,
thinking, it’s all she can do.
If she disappeared she would not be missed.
She will be gone just like everyone else.
Getting up from the grass,
she walks on the sand,
looking outward towards the sea.
She walks into the water high up above her knees.
~~~♥~~~♥ Narc Lit ♥~~~♥~~~
Katersaur - Once more, I have some comments and replies to your points. =]
First off, I just want to tell you that the pill does not kill the child after conception. It just prevents for there to be any conception by "fooling around with your hormones". And I think that the pill may not be 100% effective, and if used, shouldn't be the only form of birth control used, condoms and the pill would work well.
2. I agree with you that rape is horrible, and I think that adoption for those mothers capable of lasting the pregnancy would be the best solution. But I still disagree. Sure some PTSD victims might have a miscarriage, but some might not. What would you suggest they do? I would agree that therapy would help, but would medication be okay for them? What if abortion is the only solution? Would you not even consider it as a last resort, if nothing else works, if the risk is the lives of both the mother and child?
As for the unhealthy child, I did not mean banged up a little. You shouldn't abort a child because you know it would have Down Syndrome or Autism, but I'm talking about a child who is banged up a lot. A child who is born with underdeveloped organs and would need to be hooked up to a machine for it's entire life. I understand the whole miscarriage thing, but what if the child was alive and then died in the womb? What if it had developed to a certain stage in which the body could not tell if it is to be a miscarriage, or a live baby?
Number three is taken care of.
4. I agree that the parents who throw out a pregnant teen are scumbags, and I will never understand how one could do that to their own flesh and blood. But it happens, unfortunately. Everything you said in this point, is absolutely correct. And I believe anyone can succeed if they really try. But there are those people who, no matter how much they try, they never manage it. I don't know, how or why. Some may make minimum wage, but it is tough for them to support a child and a job for minimum wage. Let alone two part time jobs for minimum wage and a child. Some manage, but others don't. And I agree that it is their fault for having a child in high school, which is why I am against sex in high school. And I believe that they shouldn't abort the child for that reason, but sometimes they have to.
5. as I was writing it I don't think I had much of a point. I think it was because perhaps I didn't understand your point too much, and I tend to just say what is on my mind even if it makes no sense. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of: People will rebel more if it became illegal. The law might be able to reinforce the closing down of those clinics that do preform abortions, but people will become more likely to go back to the unsafe ways of abortion because they are hopeless and do not agree with the law.
I agree with you on so many points about anti-abortion, but I am still pro-choice. Or since I agree with many points of both, I am moderate. I would consider abortion a last resort, and there should be a lot of restrictions, but I just feel like you can't completely get rid of it. I think people should be smart about abortions, though it may be wrong to kill that infant, s/he is still a parasite until s/he can live outside of the mother. [But I draw a line at a certain point in the infant's in-womb development. Abortions should be performed earlier rather than later.] I feel like society today thinks that abortions are okay and it's fine to just abort after getting pregnant every time because you don't need the infant.
I personally don't think I'll ever get an abortion, unless something really bad happened, such as rape, or if the child is born to need a mechanical object to breath for it. I wouldn't want the child to be tortured. I'm also still iffy about having sex before marriage or while in school.
~~~♥~~~♥ Narc Lit ♥~~~♥~~~
The waves softly hit her legs.
She looks at the sunset and its yellow-red hues
she walks into the sea, farther and farther,
opening her arms towards the wave.
The water is high up to her hips.
The wave comes towards her.
She looks at the wave with her arms stretched out;
the water starts to rage, the wave hits her body hard.
Then the water calms down. The water recedes,
then darkness falls, and all goes dark.
The sun goes down and the day is done.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:50 am
Remove marshjazz Remove:
So your moderate?
Nycus:
Yeah, I also find that alot of pro-life people are religious. I took biology two years ago and got mostly C's in it, but it was a hard course for me, cause I'm more of a Chemistry person. It just seems really weird how that is. I guess, I won't stop people having it but I will never agree with it. Abortion was Illegal here. They made it legal due to the amount of women doing themselves damage on the black market. Also here, there are hundred of people waiting to adopt babies but no where near enough babies being given away (because of abortion and people keeping their kids) that people aren't able to bring up a child when they would like to. However I must disagree with the Pill because its actually hormones, it stops your cycle from happening, at least mine does though I don't use it as contraception. It stops the cycle from happening so no egg is released, so its not terminating a pregnancy if no egg has been released, though I don't know about the morning after pill. Also I think the laws on abortion are unfair to men, some guys really do want to be fathers and are willing to bring the kid up on their own but because a women doesn't want to go through a birth they abort a kid. I personally think that is unfair because though yes its the womans body the thing inside her is only half hers. There you go. People would just fly to the places with less retarded people. Well England didn't have this long drawn out debate, full of idiots who don't know the difference between a fetis and a baby. No one over there has an issue about it, so they all abort. Over here all the pro-life people (unless they are hypocritical) will keep the baby, and put it up for adoption. That is why all your adoption centers are near empty. But I don't actually find that to be a bad thing. That just means there are less unwanted children over there that will end up spending all their time til their 18 in an adoption center.
Narc Lit:
I disagree that parents who throw out a pregnant teen are scumbags. They just have expectations and aren't push overs. They wont permit retarded acts from their children. They taught them better and at this point they don't find them to be their flesh and blood.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:57 am
Kids aren't put in adoption centers, they don't exist here. They are put with foster families and are kept in a family home until they are adopted and there are plenty of foster parents out there which is understandable as they get paid loads.
There are plenty of debates over here about when a baby is a baby and when its not. Its very common. There are also protests going on an awful lot of the time outside parliament.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:16 am
Okay I didn't know that there were protest going on over there as well. I'm not going to escape the stupidity of America. This sucks.
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:27 pm
marshjazz 2. And how, exactly, does caring the fetis to term and giving birth to it, going to help the rape victim? It isn't. It only makes it worse. You don't care about the rape victim. There is no telling what a rape mother, that is forced to keep her baby will do.
I love how all the pro-life people fail to actually put themselves into the raped person's shoes. Just oh no, lets ruin the mothers life by making her be pregnent for 9 months, without looking at the reality that that person will have to take time off of work, and depending on your job that can result in being fired. Or a college student taking time off. Yeah, lets suspend her school so that yet another unwanted baby can come into this world.
3. Against teenage pregnency. That is part of my stupidity is my biggest pet-peeeve. I still think that if they get pregnent, it is her body and life, so she should deside.
4. Shelters are already crowded, there is already a waiting list in places like NY. Does a teenager really need to go through that? Minimum wage even with welfare, will barely pay for car/gas/house. Yeah, except going back to school requires money, which so long as she is raising a child by herself, she wont have. She could always wait 18 years, til it moves out, but then how is she going to afford her childs school (hopefully) and take care of herself unless she gets a better job, but inorder for her to get a better job she needs her education. So she should hold off on the childs education or her education? It's gonna be to expensive for them to both be going to school at the same time, the mother can't get a schoolarship. And even with financial aid and maybe a schoolarship for the child, college can still end up costing. Put never fear, she can end up working for the rest of her life, to support that child. Basically all you do, is instead of ending one fetis, you doom two lives to a misserable exsistance.
Do you relize how over crowded adoption centers would get if abortions were illegal. They would start turning down kids, because they are out of beds. Be realistic. I understand what you are saying and as for the place of the rape victim I do take that into consideration because I was raped at one point in my life...but luckily I never had to make the decision of keeping or aborting a baby because I didn't get pregnant. But the thing is...I understand the trauma you speak of from keeping a child that came from Rape...and yes I know your comment on this wasn't directed at me smile . You make a lot of good points. Face it. If a woman wants an abortion she will get one whether or not it's legal. Whether she has to get a coat hanger or whatever. It happens. (Not directed at your Marsh you probably already know this). I also want to mention that before I was born my mom had an abortion because my dad talked her into it. Because he already had two kids (with other women) and wasn't ready for another one. She has regretted her whole life that abortion. I could have had another brother or sister to go with the brother and two sisters I already have. I know all people aren't going to regret it. Some people would probably be more likely to regret not aborting the child..which is sad but true. I know that all of this may seem like jabber and failure to make a point but all of this confusion is why I'm moderate. The only thing about abortion being legal is that I don't believe the woman should use it as her only birth control. That is when it gets out of hand. <3
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:44 pm
I guess I am moderet. I am 17 and Have do Daughters ( hate on me i DO NOT CARE) I Bleave if you make the mistake of getting pregent you should Take the resopabilty Of your mistake like i did. But if Abortions where not around alot of woman would die from people doing make shift abortions. There on only some case where i think it is sutibal and that is eather you where rape or if your baby will be severy messed up from drugs or something. I guess in my own for myself i would never have an abortion If any thing i would give my child up for adoption because there are lots of familys out there that would llove a baby but can not have any. I love my Daughters more then anything and if i had it all over to do agian i would still have them. Thats my veiw on it if you dont like it oh well. biggrin
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:14 am
band4ever101 I know that all of this may seem like jabber and failure to make a point but all of this confusion is why I'm moderate. The only thing about abortion being legal is that I don't believe the woman should use it as her only birth control. That is when it gets out of hand. Thats where rules and regulations would come in. Limits, qualifications, and other standards that would have to be kept. Which is why the whole "ONLY form of birth control" doesn't apply. It's cheaper just to get the pill or condums, so how many people are that retarded? And of those people who are that retarded, set some limit. You can have a max of ___ abortions in ____ amount of time.
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