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1- Why not? Again, a special case means a special consideration, and gives leeway for exceptions.

2- So, the fetus is now commiting a crime by existing? Even without being concious? Aren't there laws about one who cannot possibly consider the results of it's actions? Such as for children or people who are too drunk to know better? Furthermore, the impregnation of a woman is not the action of the fetus, but of the mother and father of the fetus. By charging the fetus for a crime here would be like me grabbing your wrist, pulling it across my face and calling it assault.

3-Again, of course, that was not my point. Bone marrow has nothing to do with you. Unless you somehow caused the person in need to be devioid of good bone marrow. And in such a case, as I mentioned earlier, if that person died, you owuld be charged with manslaughter. The point is, with a fetus, the people who got pregnant are responsible for the lfie of that child. With a cancer patient, nobody is responsible because nobody caused that person to get cancer.

And also, it may sound cruel, but if a woman is willing to risk dying to kill a life she consensually created, then I really don't care if she does die. It is similar to those ******** who jump out of the back of trucks to emulate Jackass and end up dying. I don't really pitty those idiots either.

Are you saying you eat week old blind sheep that you killed with a chainsaw?

...

And you never invited me over for dinner??!!??

*wink*

1. I don't see how it is a special case. And if we start turning things into special cases, that leaves room for more special cases and more exceptions. Pretty soon, Oops! No more rights!

2. Yes, the fetus is committing a crime by existing. (And people who are too drunk normally do get charged.) If a child that doesn't know better commits a crime, does that mean no crime has been committed? Of course the child isn't going to be tried or charged, but the crime was still committed.
The mother also didn't put the fetus in there on purpose. Her actions indirectly resulted in the fetus being there, but she did not purposely put it there. It would be more similar to me provoking you and harrassing you verbally, and then you slapping me because of the harrassment. That WOULD be assault.

3. That was not entirely my point either. But I misunderstood yours earlier anyway.
(My response for point two can also be taken as a response to three, so I'm not adding any more here.)

To be completely honest: I really find that thought absolutely sickening. Inducing a miscarriage or self-aborting is nothing similar to a moron jumping out of the back of a moving vehicle because they saw it on TV. For those dumbasses, they're doing it just because. They're just ******** stupid.
For women who are desperate enough to self-abort or try to induce a miscarriage, they see it as something they HAVE to do. There's no way around it. For whatever reason, they can't be pregnant and they can't have a baby. Being in a situation where you see aborting as your only option is not in anyway similar to a ******** jumping out of a truck for the hell of it.
Would you say someone who jumped out of a truck because it was crashing or they'd been kidnapped and saw a chance to escape a ********? Jumping out of a truck is their only or best option.

Despite this, despite that her actions caused the pregnancy to happen, if one does not allow her access to abortion, one is removing the right to control her body from a woman when she becomes pregnant.

Even though pregnancy is unlike any other situation (as can well be seen through the lack of anything to compare it to), there is no other time when the rights of one human to control their own body are taken away. Even to save the life of that very person, one must have their permission (which is why doctors have to respect a DNR, even though it means allowing someone to die).

Seriously though?

I mean, I know that I am female, and that I am Politically Pro-Choice (still unsure about Personally), but I can't help but feel sorry for someone who is so scared, so desperate to not be pregnant that they would endanger their own life by using an unsafe method to try to end it. It isn't about selfishness, it's about terror. And I sympathize with them, because I have been that scared about a pregnancy (and the "homemade" abortion I was given against my will). I feel bad for them, because I understand how difficult it is to think logically when one is that terrified. And getting an unsafe, illegal abortion is not a logical action (whether or not getting a safe legal one is logical is a separate matter).

I am not trying to convince anyone to believe any way about this matter. I am just responding with my feelings on it. The proceeding is entirely emotional, as I am sure everyone noticed. *grin*

If a child commits a crime, the parent is held responsible. So, if the child commits a crime by being there, it is the fault of the parents. If they kill the child to rectify this crime, they are compounding their first victimless crime with manslaughter.

Life and death is different, as always. However, if it is just "My parents will be SOOO pissed if they find out I got some physical rammifications for my actions which they wouldn't condone anyway", that's just bullshit. That's just escapism. If any parent would kick out their child for being pregnant, and not welcome that new life, or at least attempt to support their child in helping with adoption or raising, then they fail at being a parent.

I have more empathy for the child's whole life than the terror of a woman who put herself there. She COULD have been pregnant. She COULD have adopted out. She COULD have raised the child. But it was so much easier to just make it all go away, and kill her child in the process.

I feel the need to point out, first off, that I really, really sympathize with anyone who is dealing with a pregnancy they feel they cannot carry to term, and is so desperate as to try some sort of "at home" abortion technique. Because I think that the rest of this is going to come off as a tad bit mean, and I want to show where I am coming from.

They BELIEVE they can't be pregnant. Which, from their point of view is the same thing, of course. But, looking at the situation from outside, there are other options available to them. These are just options they do not feel they can take.

That is a very, very hard thing for your friend to go through. My heart goes out to her.

However, there are other options available to young women who are unintentionally pregnant. There are safe houses, for those who cannot stay at their parent's or guardian's house. There is Open Adoption (where one picks the adoptive parents and the child is guaranteed a family - no growing up in the system). And not all minors who keep an unintentional pregnancy "ruin their lives". There are schools with Day Care, there are charitable groups that can help. There is WIC and other government help to get food and pay for necessities. It is possible to have a child and still make it through school - there was a chick in my High School who had dropped out of another school, had a child and got married, and then went back to finish school.

I, obviously, do believe that women should have the right to choose safe, legal abortion. But I also believe that they should be informed of all of the options available to them. And I strongly believe that an "at home" abortion is far too dangerous. Your friend is very lucky that she was not harmed.

Feelings are feelings. One can't help how they feel.

From the point of view of someone who believes that unborn humans should not be killed (other than to save the life of the pregnant women), I think it would be hard not to feel a bit angry at someone who does get an abortion. And also, I think, hard to feel much sympathy for someone who accidentally kills themself while trying to kill another human (even one who is living inside and off of their body).

On the other hand, I can't help but feel sorrow for these people, and I think you are the same way. Feelings aren't controlled by logic (things would be a lot simpler if they were though).

Which is why you are Pro-Choice. People who are Pro-Life see the unborn human as the "innocent" in the situation, so many of them feel more sorrow for them, before the woman.

You do understand that these emotions don't make good arguments, right? People feel the way they do about the matter because that is how they feel about. Explaining how you, or I, feel more sorrow for the one human involved doesn't do anything to convince people who feel more sorrow for the other human. One might help others to understand why one feels the way one does on the matter, but it will not convince anyone.

*grin*

I disagree. I mean, even in the case of having abortion legal, you're taking away the right to life. Some right needs to be compromised somewhere.

I don't agree with taking away the right to free speech, however, I do agree with perjury being illegal.

Believing that reasonable limits should be imposed is not the same as wanting to take away rights.


And while I might agree that I don't feel abortion should remain legal for the sake of women who will abort illegally...I feel very sorry for them.

It's an emotional argument (and largely an argument based on potential) to say that women will die procuring illegal abortions so abortion should remain legal. If we look at it lacking any emotions, it is still probable that less people would die if abortion was illegal, despite women dying from illegal abortions. As heartless as that is, more people would be alive. There would be many who died, I'm not denying that. There would be a lot of dead fetii, and certainly a number of women who chose to risk death rather than carry through with pregnancy, how big that number is I'm not sure. But right now, over a million people die a year from abortion, without having any choice in the matter. Assuming that half the people who have illegal abortions die, and 1 out of 5 people who choose to get abortions now choose illegal abortions, and that half of the people who have illegal abortions die, you'd only get half of the death you get now, and that's a pretty high death rate for illegal abortions. If it's 2 out of 5 people, it evens out. Considering how more people who get abortions are technically able to deal with pregnancies without additional help, and how many people got abortions before it was legal percentage-wise, 2 out of 5 is a bit high.

That is removing all emotion from it. Few people like women dying. Few people like seeing women get hurt. But in the pro-life community, few people are going to say, "Let's keep abortion legal because sure, more people would die, but at least the women wouldn't choose to endanger themselves." No matter how much they care about people, including women, nothing takes away from how the women who would die would choose to endanger themselves in the process of trying to get their children killed. In any other situation, almost everyone would be appalled by this behavior. If you're pro-life and feel a fetus is worth the same as a born infant, it's hard not to feel just as appalled.