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 Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:07 am
Quote: I think what you're describing is a form of Deism. Regardless of what it is called, the belief still exists, and again, I only used the term agnostic because that is what some people I knew who believe this called themselves. Quote: And the photographs, or are we counting those as "stuff left behind"? Yeah I was thinking those would be included in the "stuff left behind." Quote: I actually know and trust people who were in the Holocaust. No one I know personally met Jesus. You said you know people who you trust who are Christian, but you don't believe their testimonies. Quote: As I have already said, there are photographs of the Holocaust. Show me a photograph of God. "A picture is worth a thousand words." Well, I think the Bible fullfills the second part of this saying. There are thousands of words in the Bible and thousands of other historical documents which provide some historical evidence for Christianity. Quote: Don't cheat by showing me a picture of a beautiful mountainside or something natural, which is what I know I would do if asked that question in your shoes. That thought hadn't even crossed my mind, seriously. I don't disagree with the Christians who argue that those kinds of pictures are helpful, but right now, I am a scientist arguing with a scientist, so I know better. Quote: The other physical evidence is a lot more well-documented and lot easier to test than evidence from 2000+ years ago. I just chose the holocaust as an example because I have always been particularly fascinated with that period of history. So, let me think of another example ... what about the mayans? You talked about believing in them, I think. There were no pictures for them either. All we have left of them is some archeological evidence, which is even less than what we have for Christianity.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:52 pm
Quote: Quote: I actually know and trust people who were in the Holocaust. No one I know personally met Jesus. You said you know people who you trust who are Christian, but you don't believe their testimonies. None of them are over 2000 years old, unfortunately. Quote: Quote: As I have already said, there are photographs of the Holocaust. Show me a photograph of God. "A picture is worth a thousand words." Well, I think the Bible fullfills the second part of this saying. There are thousands of words in the Bible and thousands of other historical documents which provide some historical evidence for Christianity. There's historical evidence and thousands of words for a lot of religions. Historical evidence doesn't prove your God. It proves that some of the Bible is based on historical fact, which I agree with. None of the other religions have a photograph (Actually, some of them do...And you'll find that I tend to find those religions a lot more reasonable). Words can lie. Photographs have a hard time doing that. Quote: Quote: The other physical evidence is a lot more well-documented and lot easier to test than evidence from 2000+ years ago. I just chose the holocaust as an example because I have always been particularly fascinated with that period of history. So, let me think of another example ... what about the mayans? You talked about believing in them, I think. There were no pictures for them either. All we have left of them is some archeological evidence, which is even less than what we have for Christianity. There are people today who are descended from the Mayans. There are huge temples that were built by them. Tons and tons of archaeological evidence. Do we have anyone today that's descended from God? Do we have anything today that Jesus literally built that we can prove he built? He was a carpenter, wasn't he? You'll find it's a lot easier to prove human events than supernatural events.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:05 pm
Lethkhar Words can lie. Photographs have a hard time doing that.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:52 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Lethkhar Words can lie. Photographs have a hard time doing that. Well, one would hope they didn't have photoshop 2000 years ago. xd
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:00 pm
Quote: None of them are over 2000 years old, unfortunately. Quote: There are people today who are descended from the Mayans. There are people who descended from the original Christians. Quote: There are huge temples that were built by them. Tons and tons of archaeological evidence. There is evidence for a lot of christian events. There is archeological evidence for the temple of solomon, the tombs Jews used, and a lot of the other structures Jews used. Now, as to Christianity, if you believe that the Jews existed and their religion was true, then you would believe in the old testament, and Christians can use the old testament to prove Jesus was the messiah. Quote: You'll find it's a lot easier to prove human events than supernatural events. Um ... that is kind of the meaning of supernatural.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:17 pm
Goldenlici Quote: None of them are over 2000 years old, unfortunately. Quote: There are people today who are descended from the Mayans. There are people who descended from the original Christians. But none are descended from God. I know Christians exist. I don't know God exists. That's what we're trying to prove, right? Quote: Quote: There are huge temples that were built by them. Tons and tons of archaeological evidence. There is evidence for a lot of christian events. There is archeological evidence for the temple of solomon, the tombs Jews used, and a lot of the other structures Jews used. Now, as to Christianity, if you believe that the Jews existed and their religion was true, then you would believe in the old testament, and Christians can use the old testament to prove Jesus was the messiah. Did I ever make the claim that Jesus wasn't the messiah? Once again: I don't care if he was the messiah or not. It doesn't affect me because I don't really believe in God, in case you had forgotten. You're proving to me the existence of God, not Jesus's capacity as the messiah. Quote: Quote: You'll find it's a lot easier to prove human events than supernatural events. Um ... that is kind of the meaning of supernatural. Precisely my point.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:35 pm
I was merely pointing out that there is plenty of proof for Judaism and the Jews still exist. Proof for God only goes so far. I think we have strayed a little, so let's start over. Why doesn't Jesus appear? My points: 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will. 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it. 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:20 pm
Goldenlici 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. Jesus also said that he would appear before anyone who requested it. Here we see a contradiction. Paul did not believe in the ressurection until Jesus appeared before him, and he was one of Jesus's most devoted disciples. What makes Jesus think the average Joe will believe it? Quote: 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will. Yet Jesus appeared before hundreds of people after being ressurected. How did this not tamper with their own free will? Quote: 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it. Then let them ignore it. It won't hurt them. Quote: 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God. Harry Potter And The Order Of The Pheonix says that Lord Voldemort is the only wizard ever to have created more than one horcrux. Therefore, wizards exist. rolleyes Your logic is somewhat akin to that. You can't prove a document true just by using its own words.
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:06 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. Jesus also said that he would appear before anyone who requested it. Here we see a contradiction. Paul did not believe in the ressurection until Jesus appeared before him, and he was one of Jesus's most devoted disciples. What makes Jesus think the average Joe will believe it? Where did it say that Jesus would appear to anyone who requested it. Quote: 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will. Yet Jesus appeared before hundreds of people after being ressurected. How did this not tamper with their own free will? that didn't prove God completely to people. It only proved that Jesus came back from the dead. Quote: 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it. Then let them ignore it. It won't hurt them. If God only proved himself partially, would you believe in him? Quote: 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God. Harry Potter And The Order Of The Pheonix says that Lord Voldemort is the only wizard ever to have created more than one horcrux. Therefore, wizards exist. rolleyes I believe that the Harry Potter series is classified as fiction. The bible is not classified as fiction last time i checked. Also, it didn't say that in the Order of the Pheonix, it said that in the Half-Blood Prince. mrgreen Quote: Your logic is somewhat akin to that. You can't prove a document true just by using its own words. She wasn't trying to prove the bible in that statement.
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:40 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. Jesus also said that he would appear before anyone who requested it. Here we see a contradiction. I would like to see the passage. I don't doubt you. Just want to see the context ... sorry, but seriously, I have had too many "christians" tell me that something in the Bible says this, then I go and read it and it has nothing to do with what they were trying to get me to believe.
I do know that Jesus said He was sending a helper to His followers, (First couple of chapters in Acts.) which was the Holy Spirit. God says He will send the Holy Spirit into all of His followers, and the Holy Spirit is one of the three parts of God. Paul did not believe in the ressurection until Jesus appeared before him, and he was one of Jesus's most devoted disciples. What makes Jesus think the average Joe will believe it?
There are thousands of people who believed, before and after Paul, without that experience. You are using the one example of when God did use that method, but what about the millions of times that wasn't necessary?
Besides, at that point in history, Christianity was still a completely new idea, which goes back to my whole point about a revolution. (I forgot to restate it, but it should be back in the topic somewhere.)
Quote: 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will.
Yet Jesus appeared before hundreds of people after being ressurected. How did this not tamper with their own free will?
Because at this period, the principles of Christianity were never even considered. God needed to set the ideas of Christianity in motion, then it was no longer necessary because He had enough people who could act as teachers.
Christians have the Holy Spirit (God) inside of them, thus you can see God inside of them.
Quote: 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it.
Then let them ignore it. It won't hurt them.
.... Hell confused
Quote: 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God.
Harry Potter And The Order Of The Pheonix says that Lord Voldemort is the only wizard ever to have created more than one horcrux. Therefore, wizards exist. rolleyes
Your logic is somewhat akin to that. You can't prove a document true just by using its own words.
Then you don't believe in the light bulb because the person who invented it is dead and the only thing he lift behind are some people he taught and some documents and some results of his work?
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:32 am
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. Jesus also said that he would appear before anyone who requested it. Here we see a contradiction.
I do know that Jesus said He was sending a helper to His followers, (First couple of chapters in Acts.) which was the Holy Spirit. God says He will send the Holy Spirit into all of His followers, and the Holy Spirit is one of the three parts of God. Matthew 7:7]Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! [/quote]
[quote="John 14:14 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. Matthew 18:19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. It seems pretty clear to me. Ask and you shall recieve. Quote: Paul did not believe in the ressurection until Jesus appeared before him, and he was one of Jesus's most devoted disciples. What makes Jesus think the average Joe will believe it?
There are thousands of people who believed, before and after Paul, without that experience. You are using the one example of when God did use that method, but what about the millions of times that wasn't necessary?Well, most of those were a case of the person growing up with those teachings. Obviously, not everyone is born into a Christian household and in fact many have never even heard of Jesus. So obviously, not everyone is capable of converting without that experience. Quote: Besides, at that point in history, Christianity was still a completely new idea, which goes back to my whole point about a revolution. (I forgot to restate it, but it should be back in the topic somewhere.) I'm afraid I've forgotten it. Quote: Quote: 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will. Yet Jesus appeared before hundreds of people after being ressurected. How did this not tamper with their own free will? Because at this period, the principles of Christianity were never even considered. God needed to set the ideas of Christianity in motion, then it was no longer necessary because He had enough people who could act as teachers. So He, in effect, tampered with their free wills. So obviously He doesn't really have a problem with tampering with free will... confused Quote: Christians have the Holy Spirit (God) inside of them, thus you can see God inside of them. I can't. Quote: Quote: 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it. Then let them ignore it. It won't hurt them. .... Hell confused Sorry, I meant that it won't hurt them any more than it already will for God to prove His evidence if they still won't believe. Quote: Quote: 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God. Harry Potter And The Order Of The Pheonix says that Lord Voldemort is the only wizard ever to have created more than one horcrux. Therefore, wizards exist. rolleyes Your logic is somewhat akin to that. You can't prove a document true just by using its own words. Then you don't believe in the light bulb because the person who invented it is dead and the only thing he lift behind are some people he taught and some documents and some results of his work?Oh, and...I dunno...The fact that I can see a lightbulb? rolleyes I haven't seen God yet.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:51 am
What happened to your post? Matthew 7:7 & John 14:14 rolleyes Oh, those old versus. Matthew 7:7 The verbs "ask" "seek" and "knock" are in the present imperative in the original greek. Literally, they mean continue to ask, continue to seek, and continue to knock. Eventually, you will be given an answer, it just may not be when you want or what you want. Or, you just may not recognize the answer when you see it. John 14:14 The context of this verse is asking in the form of prayers. A prayer is a call out to God for something. Jesus said God will answer all or our prayers, but again, it may not be the answer we are looking for. Matthew 18:19 The context of this verse is what a Christian is to do when a conflict arises between other Christians. Jesus says that if you get two or more Christians involved in a situation, God will come into that situation personally and show the way that situation should be dealt with. It is also fair to mention that this is the last mentioned option available. If you ask your parents for a particular CD for Christmas, does that mean that is the gift you are going to get? God gives us what we need not what we want, thank goodness. I'll give you an example in my own life (I know it's silly, but it's just a metaphor.). When I was a little kid, my dad refused to let us have a pet of any kind, including fish. I always looked at all my cousins who had pets and was slightly jealous. For years, I prayed for God to let us get a pet, but nothing. I was still a kid, so I literally thought Matthew 7:7 said you get whatever you want. Eventually, I came to terms with the fact that I could not have a pet at that point in my life. Then, years later, when I had given up, I get a phone call from my parents asking if I wanted a dog. I was shocked. For years, I had not even thought about even just asking for a pet. In the long run, I am glad I didn't get a pet when I was younger because it would have probably died when I was still young. Also, we ended up moving soon after I gave up on the idea of a pet, so we would have had to give up the pet if we did have it. I didn't know that we were going to move when I wanted a pet, but God did. He gave me what I wanted when I needed it, not when I wanted it. Quote: Well, most of those were a case of the person growing up with those teachings. But, before Jesus's appearance, there were no families who believed who could train their children. That is my point. Jesus needed to created that base group of people to teach others, then they could teach others. That was my point with the revolution thing. Did you go back and read it or do you want me to repost it here? Quote: Sorry, I meant that it won't hurt them any more than it already will for God to prove His evidence if they still won't believe. If they still won't believe, then wouldn't God know that. Quote: The fact that I can see a lightbulb? I know, that is my point. The lightbulbs we see today are just byproducts of the first lightbulb. The first lightbulb doesn't exist. Christians are the byproducts of the first invention of Christianity. God is the inventor, Jesus like the original light bulb. Do you need to see the original light bulb to believe in light bulbs?
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:47 pm
Goldenlici What happened to your post? No idea. sweatdrop Quote: John 14:14 The context of this verse is asking in the form of prayers. A prayer is a call out to God for something. Jesus said God will answer all or our prayers, but again, it may not be the answer we are looking for. Again, I give the example of my "magical" coffee mug. Or have I not presented that one to you? Quote: Matthew 18:19 The context of this verse is what a Christian is to do when a conflict arises between other Christians. Jesus says that if you get two or more Christians involved in a situation, God will come into that situation personally and show the way that situation should be dealt with. It is also fair to mention that this is the last mentioned option available. So I guess God supported and influenced the mass burning of Protestants in England when Queen Mary I reestablished Roman Catholicism? If God is said to be in the midst of any dispute between Christians, that makes Him even more of a monster than He already is. Quote: If you ask your parents for a particular CD for Christmas, does that mean that is the gift you are going to get? God gives us what we need not what we want, thank goodness. Well, it usually does. In fact, around about November they start bugging me about what I want and I have to remind them that I'm pretty much good with what I've got already. The past two years I've raised about $500 in charity by declining Christmas presents. I plan to do it again this year, though I might also ask for a new amp, which chances are I'll get in one way or another. I could also, again, present the argument of my "magical" coffee mug, but I think my point is made. If I got whatever I wanted in prayer, I don't think I'd exercise such an ability too selfishly. Quote: I'll give you an example in my own life (I know it's silly, but it's just a metaphor.). When I was a little kid, my dad refused to let us have a pet of any kind, including fish. I always looked at all my cousins who had pets and was slightly jealous. For years, I prayed for God to let us get a pet, but nothing. I was still a kid, so I literally thought Matthew 7:7 said you get whatever you want. Eventually, I came to terms with the fact that I could not have a pet at that point in my life. Then, years later, when I had given up, I get a phone call from my parents asking if I wanted a dog. I was shocked. For years, I had not even thought about even just asking for a pet. In the long run, I am glad I didn't get a pet when I was younger because it would have probably died when I was still young. Also, we ended up moving soon after I gave up on the idea of a pet, so we would have had to give up the pet if we did have it. I didn't know that we were going to move when I wanted a pet, but God did. He gave me what I wanted when I needed it, not when I wanted it. Or maybe your parents knew that you were going to move? Coffee mug, again. Quote: Quote: Well, most of those were a case of the person growing up with those teachings. But, before Jesus's appearance, there were no families who believed who could train their children. That is my point. Jesus needed to created that base group of people to teach others, then they could teach others. That was my point with the revolution thing. Did you go back and read it or do you want me to repost it here? Please repost it. So he tampered witht he free wills of all the "teachers". Quote: Quote: Sorry, I meant that it won't hurt them any more than it already will for God to prove His evidence if they still won't believe. If they still won't believe, then wouldn't God know that. He should, He's omniscient. confused Quote: Quote: The fact that I can see a lightbulb? I know, that is my point. The lightbulbs we see today are just byproducts of the first lightbulb. The first lightbulb doesn't exist. Christians are the byproducts of the first invention of Christianity. God is the inventor, Jesus like the original light bulb. Do you need to see the original light bulb to believe in light bulbs? Nope. I believe in the existence of Christians, just like I believe in the existence of light bulbs. I also believe in the existence of the original lightbulb because I can see the original light bulb as well: 
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:51 pm
Noone responded to my post at all!!!! You guys are just scared of me.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 pm
GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Goldenlici 1. Jesus said He wouldn't appear again until the end of the world, to appear earlier would make Him a liar, thus imperfect, and thus incapable of being God. Jesus also said that he would appear before anyone who requested it. Here we see a contradiction. Paul did not believe in the ressurection until Jesus appeared before him, and he was one of Jesus's most devoted disciples. What makes Jesus think the average Joe will believe it? Where did it say that Jesus would appear to anyone who requested it. I already showed that with Goldenlici. Quote: Quote: 2. If God were to prove Himself completely, He would take away your free-will. Yet Jesus appeared before hundreds of people after being ressurected. How did this not tamper with their own free will? that didn't prove God completely to people. It only proved that Jesus came back from the dead. Which is much more than most people get. Quote: Quote: 3. If God were only to prove Himself partially, those who don't want to believe would explain it away as a hallucination, dream, or simply ignore it. Then let them ignore it. It won't hurt them. If God only proved himself partially, would you believe in him? It depends on what you mean by "partially". Quote: Quote: 4. The Bible says you will know a true prophet by the fruits he produces. Thus, the very lives of Christians are a piece of evidence for God. Harry Potter And The Order Of The Pheonix says that Lord Voldemort is the only wizard ever to have created more than one horcrux. Therefore, wizards exist. rolleyes I believe that the Harry Potter series is classified as fiction. The bible is not classified as fiction last time i checked. It depends on where you go to buy your books. I know a bookstore that puts the Bible in the "Fiction" section. Quote: Also, it didn't say that in the Order of the Pheonix, it said that in the Half-Blood Prince. mrgreen You are correct, sir. That was my mistake. sweatdrop Quote: Your logic is somewhat akin to that. You can't prove a document true just by using its own words. She wasn't trying to prove the bible in that statement.
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