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 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:07 pm
RoseRose ZonkotheSane it's not the converting that's alot of work, it's what comes after. then again, that's just my view, and hardly anyone gives half a damn stare ... i'm pretty sure you've had your 12th birthday. for girls, that's about it. and a party. but i'm sure you get enough of that. In a Conservative conversion, you often have to be more observant than the majority of the congregation, because you have to be following the laws (most of them... the modesty ones for women tend to be ignored, as well as a few others) to convert, and in a Conservative congregation, the vast majority ignore at least some of them. *from own experience in assorted Conservative synagouges* As for the being 12 and having a party, that's only Orthodox. Conservative Jewish young women have their Bat Mitzvahs at 12 or 13, and in most of these congregations, do the same as the boys. (Same in Reform). In this one synagouge that was borderline between Orthodox and Conservative, the Bat Mitzvah read Haftorah and did a D'var. For my Bat Mitzvah, I lead Shacharit, had an Aliyah, did half the Torah service (too many kids... had to share. Other person did other half the Torah service, and half the Haftorah. I did the other half). I also read Torah. I would have lead Musaf, but my dad didn't want me showing up the MALE person I HAD to share with. *shrug* I knew more than he did. I knew more than most Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. I still read Torah occasionally. Zonko, not all of us are Orthodox, and to many of us who aren't, and are female. (Perhaps all, but I don't know) the Bat Mitzvah is an important event. Now this is interesting... Actually, "bat-mitzva" and "bar-mitzva" litterally means "one that accepted the yolk of mitzvot upon him/herself". According to the mishna, the age that happens is 12 for girls and 13 for boys and it doesn't matter if you celebrated or not, because that is simply the age that the rabbis expect you to begin keeping the mitzvot. It is the age, not the ceremony that makes you a bar/bat-mitzva. So, yes, you may celebrate your bar/bat-mitzva whenever you like, but you still will be bar/bat-mitzva at 12/13 whether you like it or not. But if a person would convert, I'd say that you could say they had their bar/bat-mitzva later, but once someone is jewish and is above the age set as "one who should accept the yolk of the torah", you can't really have a bar/bat-mitzva again. You can have a party and invite people to come hear you read or give a drashah though, I suppose no one would stop you for doing THAT. So in a sense, yes, you can have a party... sweatdrop , but you can't become bar/bat-mitzva again... because you were bar/bat-mitzva the already when you passed 12/13 (assuming you were jewish). You can't pass that again if you have already, can you now? rofl (time machines?... ninja )
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:00 pm
nathan_ngl RoseRose ZonkotheSane it's not the converting that's alot of work, it's what comes after. then again, that's just my view, and hardly anyone gives half a damn stare ... i'm pretty sure you've had your 12th birthday. for girls, that's about it. and a party. but i'm sure you get enough of that. In a Conservative conversion, you often have to be more observant than the majority of the congregation, because you have to be following the laws (most of them... the modesty ones for women tend to be ignored, as well as a few others) to convert, and in a Conservative congregation, the vast majority ignore at least some of them. *from own experience in assorted Conservative synagouges* As for the being 12 and having a party, that's only Orthodox. Conservative Jewish young women have their Bat Mitzvahs at 12 or 13, and in most of these congregations, do the same as the boys. (Same in Reform). In this one synagouge that was borderline between Orthodox and Conservative, the Bat Mitzvah read Haftorah and did a D'var. For my Bat Mitzvah, I lead Shacharit, had an Aliyah, did half the Torah service (too many kids... had to share. Other person did other half the Torah service, and half the Haftorah. I did the other half). I also read Torah. I would have lead Musaf, but my dad didn't want me showing up the MALE person I HAD to share with. *shrug* I knew more than he did. I knew more than most Bar/Bat Mitzvahs. I still read Torah occasionally. Zonko, not all of us are Orthodox, and to many of us who aren't, and are female. (Perhaps all, but I don't know) the Bat Mitzvah is an important event. Now this is interesting... Actually, "bat-mitzva" and "bar-mitzva" litterally means "one that accepted the yolk of mitzvot upon him/herself". According to the mishna, the age that happens is 12 for girls and 13 for boys and it doesn't matter if you celebrated or not, because that is simply the age that the rabbis expect you to begin keeping the mitzvot. It is the age, not the ceremony that makes you a bar/bat-mitzva. So, yes, you may celebrate your bar/bat-mitzva whenever you like, but you still will be bar/bat-mitzva at 12/13 whether you like it or not. But if a person would convert, I'd say that you could say they had their bar/bat-mitzva later, but once someone is jewish and is above the age set as "one who should accept the yolk of the torah", you can't really have a bar/bat-mitzva again. You can have a party and invite people to come hear you read or give a drashah though, I suppose no one would stop you for doing THAT. So in a sense, yes, you can have a party... sweatdrop , but you can't become bar/bat-mitzva again... because you were bar/bat-mitzva the already when you passed 12/13 (assuming you were jewish). You can't pass that again if you have already, can you now? rofl (time machines?... ninja ) thank you
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:02 pm
ZonkotheSane then again, that's just my view, and hardly anyone gives half a damn stare ... RoseRose Zonko, not all of us are Orthodox, and to many of us who aren't, and are female. (Perhaps all, but I don't know) the Bat Mitzvah is an important event.
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:51 pm
oy, warning! people: calm down.
And guys, do listen to what Zonko is saying- it may not be what you believe personally, but that doesn't mean you should disregard his opinion; he and Nathan know a lot more about Judaism then any of us sweatdrop
And Zonko, there was no need for that inanely long quote tree xd blaugh
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:54 pm
darkphoenix1247 And Zonko, there was no need for that inanely long quote tree xd blaugh my bad
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:55 pm
ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 And Zonko, there was no need for that inanely long quote tree xd blaugh my bad it's okay
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:58 pm
I know, and I understand their point. Heck, I knew what Nathan said already. But... Zonko went a bit far. I know I won't change his mind, but, I guess I can't help but try. I know it's the age that's important, but, in my mind, the ceremony is the acceptance. It is the bar/bat mitzvah's first aliyah, and that is an important Jewish milestone.
Also, most of my post was NOT directed at the point Nathan was making. He seems to have missed it. I was talking about Zonko's dismissal of the Bat Mitzvah as "just a party", not the having a late ceremony.
As for the age, that's a synagouge's perspective, and when your rabbi expects you to start following the mitzvahs. My whole long post, at least the second and third paragraph, was explaining that for NON-Orthodox Jews, it's often MORE than JUST a party for girls. But, I am also somewhat vehement about this, due to family issues... maybe it isn't the big deal I'm making it out to be.
And did I ever disregard Zonko's opinion? I said that it was true for Orthodox, but I gave counterexamples to his "only a party". I may not know AS MUCH as he does, but I'm not exactly an ignoramus, and, as my Chabad rabbi says, disagreement and questioning is part of Jewish learning. I'm sorry, but I do listen to what he says, and I feel like you're telling me to shut up because he knows more, darkphoenix. I know that's not what you're trying to say, and I'm probably a bit hypersensitive right now due to a VERY bad week, but... I do listen to him, and I do disagree, and where did I go wrong in what I said, like you seem to think I did?
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:38 am
Oh no, I'm sorry crying ! ... Rose, we really didn't mean to come across as smart-asses or anything sad ... Gah, your post hurt a bit... sad RoseRose I know it's the age that's important, but, in my mind, the ceremony is the acceptance. It is the bar/bat mitzvah's first aliyah, and that is an important Jewish milestone. The point I was trying to make is that the age is more important than the ceremony. I can understand that the ceremony important to you, because the ceremony show's you have come of age, so that makes sense. But again, the aliyah itself isn't the milestone, its the comming of age... the aliyah is just to signify it. The point you made about the bat-mitva being more than a party is true. RoseRose Also, most of my post was NOT directed at the point Nathan was making. He seems to have missed it. I was talking about Zonko's dismissal of the Bat Mitzvah as "just a party", not the having a late ceremony. "Missed it?" sad I'm sorry, I was just explaining what a bar-mitzva is sad . I was only trying to make it a bit clear, since there seemed to be a dissagrement what a bar-mitzva actually is. I really felt it was in every way relevant to the subject at hand... but, I guess it was not needed sweatdrop sad . I think ill just go... ::curls up in the corner:: RoseRose As for the age, that's a synagouge's perspective, and when your rabbi expects you to start following the mitzvahs. In many streams of judaism, thing have changed, but there are some things that are incorrect to change, and one of them is the actual scripture in the torah. It states in the torah (not some halaka the rabbis made), that upon becoming 13 and a day, a boy is responsible for his actions (eg. rebbelious son). Again, I agree a person can decide when to have the ceremony, all I'm saying is what the torah expects of you 3nodding . RoseRose My whole long post, at least the second and third paragraph, was explaining that for NON-Orthodox Jews, it's often MORE than JUST a party for girls. I agree with you 3nodding . By the way - with orthodox girls, it is also supposed to be a bit more than a party, but that depends on the girl and the family sweatdrop . RoseRose And did I ever disregard Zonko's opinion? I said that it was true for Orthodox, but I gave counterexamples to his "only a party". That is fine, you did not disregard his opinion, it was simply the way you responded.. it came across a bit cold (that's my opinion though, feel free to disregard it! sweatdrop ). I think Cindy meant that you should reply more warmly (even though some people may seem try to cause us to hate them wink ). RoseRose I may not know AS MUCH as he does, but I'm not exactly an ignoramus, I think Zonko knows that blaugh , and so do I. By commenting, he didn't mean to say you're ignorant, or at least, he shouldn't have sad . We are all here to share our views, we don't think anyone else is an idiot! I'm sure zonko really didn't mean it that way even if he is sometimes a bit blunt xd . By bringing our opinions, we are trying to be good jews 3nodding heart . RoseRose and, as my Chabad rabbi says, disagreement and questioning is part of Jewish learning. I'm sorry, but I do listen to what he says, and I feel like you're telling me to shut up because he knows more, darkphoenix. I know that's not what you're trying to say, and I'm probably a bit hypersensitive right now due to a VERY bad week, but... I do listen to him, and I do disagree, and where did I go wrong in what I said, like you seem to think I did? No one is asking you to shut-up, its more like a request to... calm down sweatdrop . Personally, I think it was the response that gave the negative impression. Again, I honestly don't mean to be rude, but your response was quite cold (even if deserved wink ). I felt a sharp stab reading your post, it's painful for me when someone feels hurt or offended when what was trying to be done is the opposite (even if it isn't even about me). I'm sorry, I can understand your in a bad mood, but please, sometimes what you write can really burn, especially when our intentions are positive heart . I hope we can all forgive eachother now and be happy blaugh mrgreen . Again, I'm really sorry rose if you were offended in any way, no one meant any harm, you know that mrgreen !
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:07 pm
nathan_ngl Oh no, I'm sorry crying ! ... Rose, we really didn't mean to come across as smart-asses or anything sad ... Gah, your post hurt a bit... sad The smartass thing... that was more at darkphoenix's post, than yours... I'm sorry. Quote: RoseRose I know it's the age that's important, but, in my mind, the ceremony is the acceptance. It is the bar/bat mitzvah's first aliyah, and that is an important Jewish milestone. The point I was trying to make is that the age is more important than the ceremony. I can understand that the ceremony important to you, because the ceremony show's you have come of age, so that makes sense. But again, the aliyah itself isn't the milestone, its the comming of age... the aliyah is just to signify it. The point you made about the bat-mitva being more than a party is true. *nods* Okay, I see your point here. Correct communication! Yay! Quote: RoseRose Also, most of my post was NOT directed at the point Nathan was making. He seems to have missed it. I was talking about Zonko's dismissal of the Bat Mitzvah as "just a party", not the having a late ceremony. "Missed it?" sad I'm sorry, I was just explaining what a bar-mitzva is sad . I was only trying to make it a bit clear, since there seemed to be a dissagrement what a bar-mitzva actually is. I really felt it was in every way relevant to the subject at hand... but, I guess it was not needed sweatdrop sad . I think ill just go... ::curls up in the corner:: It's okay... I thought you were responding directly to what I said in my post, rather than elaborating on it. I'm sorry... *sigh* Bad moods=me taking everything the worst possible way Quote: RoseRose As for the age, that's a synagouge's perspective, and when your rabbi expects you to start following the mitzvahs. In many streams of judaism, thing have changed, but there are some things that are incorrect to change, and one of them is the actual scripture in the torah. It states in the torah (not some halaka the rabbis made), that upon becoming 13 and a day, a boy is responsible for his actions (eg. rebbelious son). Again, I agree a person can decide when to have the ceremony, all I'm saying is what the torah expects of you 3nodding Okay, the age thing was reffering SPECIFICALLY to females. I know it's in the Torah for MALES, but I don't believe it's anywhere for FEMALES. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I belive the 12 thing was done by the first Reform rabbi to officiate at a Bat Mitzvah (for his own daughter, I believe) Quote: RoseRose My whole long post, at least the second and third paragraph, was explaining that for NON-Orthodox Jews, it's often MORE than JUST a party for girls. I agree with you 3nodding . By the way - with orthodox girls, it is also supposed to be a bit more than a party, but that depends on the girl and the family sweatdrop . Okay... guess I misread your post. Quote: RoseRose And did I ever disregard Zonko's opinion? I said that it was true for Orthodox, but I gave counterexamples to his "only a party". That is fine, you did not disregard his opinion, it was simply the way you responded.. it came across a bit cold (that's my opinion though, feel free to disregard it! sweatdrop ). I think Cindy meant that you should reply more warmly (even though some people may seem try to cause us to hate them wink ). Ah... the problem with me responding to Zonko warmly has to do with stuff that happened on AIM, not the guild. I respect his knowledge... I have some issues with some stuff... our arguments get rather... heated. So... Yeah, I guess I probably replied a bit coldly to him... and I apologize for that. I'll try to tone back the harshness. RoseRose Rose"]I may not know AS MUCH as he does, but I'm not exactly an ignoramus, I think Zonko knows that blaugh , and so do I. By commenting, he didn't mean to say you're ignorant, or at least, he shouldn't have sad . We are all here to share our views, we don't think anyone else is an idiot! I'm sure zonko really didn't mean it that way even if he is sometimes a bit blunt xd . By bringing our opinions, we are trying to be good jews 3nodding heart . RoseRose and, as my Chabad rabbi says, disagreement and questioning is part of Jewish learning. I'm sorry, but I do listen to what he says, and I feel like you're telling me to shut up because he knows more, darkphoenix. I know that's not what you're trying to say, and I'm probably a bit hypersensitive right now due to a VERY bad week, but... I do listen to him, and I do disagree, and where did I go wrong in what I said, like you seem to think I did? No one is asking you to shut-up, its more like a request to... calm down sweatdrop . Personally, I think it was the response that gave the negative impression. Again, I honestly don't mean to be rude, but your response was quite cold (even if deserved wink ). I felt a sharp stab reading your post, it's painful for me when someone feels hurt or offended when what was trying to be done is the opposite (even if it isn't even about me). I'm sorry, I can understand your in a bad mood, but please, sometimes what you write can really burn, especially when our intentions are positive heart . I hope we can all forgive eachother now and be happy blaugh mrgreen . Again, I'm really sorry rose if you were offended in any way, no one meant any harm, you know that mrgreen !Okay... like I said, this was more to Cindy's post than yours... I didn't really have that huge a problem with yours... I just felt like... she was dismissing me.... but, then, that's what half my bad mood's been about... meh. I apologize if I came off too harsh... Like I said, I'm in a bad mood, and by bad mood, I mean last night (when things got even worse) I was sobbing my eyes out. Guess this is one more thing I'll have to put under my lists of messups this week............................
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:17 pm
I dont think those are happy little trees... sad
bob ross would be sad
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:43 pm
yay, all is fogiven mrgreen blaugh heart ! Now we can be all happy again 3nodding !
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:40 pm
RoseRose I know, and I understand their point. Heck, I knew what Nathan said already. But... Zonko went a bit far. I know I won't change his mind, but, I guess I can't help but try. I know it's the age that's important, but, in my mind, the ceremony is the acceptance. It is the bar/bat mitzvah's first aliyah, and that is an important Jewish milestone. you're coming from an entirely different value system and idealogy than i am. so there are naturally misconceptions and differences in views of certain concepts. the main differance is, i don't get angry. and i've long ago accepted your view, but as your view. you'd have better luck boring through 12 feet of solid granite with your fingernails than trying to change my own. Quote: Also, most of my post was NOT directed at the point Nathan was making. He seems to have missed it. I was talking about Zonko's dismissal of the Bat Mitzvah as "just a party", not the having a late ceremony. except that's not what i said. the bas mitzvah is the birthday date. the party is a celebration. and it is something to be celebrated, it is an important milestone. but you'll excuse me if i think celebrating your 12th birthday at 16 is a bit stupid. Quote: As for the age, that's a synagouge's perspective, and when your rabbi expects you to start following the mitzvahs. My whole long post, at least the second and third paragraph, was explaining that for NON-Orthodox Jews, it's often MORE than JUST a party for girls. But, I am also somewhat vehement about this, due to family issues... maybe it isn't the big deal I'm making it out to be. again, the celebration is just a big birthday party. the actual event is the birthday. what makes a rabbi more qualified to make a decision than the countless before him? can one honestly say that one's rabbi is greater than, for instance, rav moshe fienstein? one can't argue against a stance that rejects rational thought and reasoning. Quote: And did I ever disregard Zonko's opinion? maybe not, but you sure as hell disregarded zonko stare Quote: I said that it was true for Orthodox, but I gave counterexamples to his "only a party". I may not know AS MUCH as he does, but I'm not exactly an ignoramus, and, as my Chabad rabbi says, disagreement and questioning is part of Jewish learning. you're absolutely right. but you're also misunderstanding his reason. but such disagreement and questioning is based upon the need and want for truth, not the rejection of tradition of authority. torah learning is about asking how/when/where/who/what we do, not whether it is applicable to today's society, or rejection of authority. and those who have these "disagreements" are far above you and i. their level of wisdom, genius, and knowledge ( i wonder who gets that)is found nowhere else. you may see an old man, bending over a book. i see a godal, a great one. like i said, there are fundemental differences in our respective idealogies. but enough ranting Quote: I'm sorry, but I do listen to what he says, and I feel like you're telling me to shut up because he knows more, darkphoenix. I know that's not what you're trying to say, and I'm probably a bit hypersensitive right now due to a VERY bad week, but... I do listen to him, and I do disagree, and where did I go wrong in what I said, like you seem to think I did? somehow i don't think you want me to answer that. but let me say this: cindy would never tell you, or anyone to shut up, bar perhaps her brother.
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:03 pm
ZonkotheSane RoseRose I know, and I understand their point. Heck, I knew what Nathan said already. But... Zonko went a bit far. I know I won't change his mind, but, I guess I can't help but try. I know it's the age that's important, but, in my mind, the ceremony is the acceptance. It is the bar/bat mitzvah's first aliyah, and that is an important Jewish milestone. you're coming from an entirely different value system and idealogy than i am. so there are naturally misconceptions and differences in views of certain concepts. the main differance is, i don't get angry. and i've long ago accepted your view, but as your view. you'd have better luck boring through 12 feet of solid granite with your fingernails than trying to change my own. Quote: Also, most of my post was NOT directed at the point Nathan was making. He seems to have missed it. I was talking about Zonko's dismissal of the Bat Mitzvah as "just a party", not the having a late ceremony. except that's not what i said. the bas mitzvah is the birthday date. the party is a celebration. and it is something to be celebrated, it is an important milestone. but you'll excuse me if i think celebrating your 12th birthday at 16 is a bit stupid. Quote: As for the age, that's a synagouge's perspective, and when your rabbi expects you to start following the mitzvahs. My whole long post, at least the second and third paragraph, was explaining that for NON-Orthodox Jews, it's often MORE than JUST a party for girls. But, I am also somewhat vehement about this, due to family issues... maybe it isn't the big deal I'm making it out to be. again, the celebration is just a big birthday party. the actual event is the birthday. what makes a rabbi more qualified to make a decision than the countless before him? can one honestly say that one's rabbi is greater than, for instance, rav moshe fienstein? one can't argue against a stance that rejects rational thought and reasoning. Quote: And did I ever disregard Zonko's opinion? maybe not, but you sure as hell disregarded zonko stare Quote: I said that it was true for Orthodox, but I gave counterexamples to his "only a party". I may not know AS MUCH as he does, but I'm not exactly an ignoramus, and, as my Chabad rabbi says, disagreement and questioning is part of Jewish learning. you're absolutely right. but you're also misunderstanding his reason. but such disagreement and questioning is based upon the need and want for truth, not the rejection of tradition of authority. torah learning is about asking how/when/where/who/what we do, not whether it is applicable to today's society, or rejection of authority. and those who have these "disagreements" are far above you and i. their level of wisdom, genius, and knowledge ( i wonder who gets that)is found nowhere else. you may see an old man, bending over a book. i see a godal, a great one. like i said, there are fundemental differences in our respective idealogies. but enough ranting Quote: I'm sorry, but I do listen to what he says, and I feel like you're telling me to shut up because he knows more, darkphoenix. I know that's not what you're trying to say, and I'm probably a bit hypersensitive right now due to a VERY bad week, but... I do listen to him, and I do disagree, and where did I go wrong in what I said, like you seem to think I did? somehow i don't think you want me to answer that. but let me say this: cindy would never tell you, or anyone to shut up, bar perhaps her brother. Zonko, did you even READ my response to Nathan? And, Zonko, I apologize if I took it out of context... or wrongly, but as I explained... I've been doing that a lot lately. So I'm a f-ing idiot. So... nothing new. (I don't agree with everything you say in this post, but I'm coming down with something [as well as having cried both yesterday and today due to horribly bad days and s**t], and I'm probably going to be gone over the weekend, and I didn't want to leave it that long without a response. I'll come back to it later, if I remember... [i forget things like this a lot] with a better response)
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:11 am
I'm sorry your feeling so upset rose sad , I hope you feel better! whee
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:50 am
RoseRose Zonko, did you even READ my response to Nathan? posted before i read it. my bad sweatdrop
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