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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:43 pm
Lord Redtail Rathan So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana? I'm not debating drinking age, I agree with it. Legalization of marijuana or any drug for that matter is open to debate no matter what country you come from - prohibition never works and only leads to financing criminal organizations. I'd think the US would have learned that lesson during the 1920s.
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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:49 pm
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana? I'm not debating drinking age, I agree with it. Legalization of marijuana or any drug for that matter is open to debate no matter what country you come from - prohibition never works and only leads to financing criminal organizations. I'd think the US would have learned that lesson during the 1920s. But stick to legalization of a drug in the area you're from. That way you actually have valid arguments. And you realize if (god forbid) Marijuana was legalized, what's to say that a few years down the road, the argument will change to add another narcotic drug to the legality list? And no matter what you do, there will always be criminal organizations, even for s**t that IS legal. Music...movies...games...alcohol...tobacco...firearms... And yes, prohibition DOES work. Otherwise over half the population of the US would be pot smokers. as it stands, less then 10% is.
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Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:34 pm
Lord Redtail Rathan And yes, prohibition DOES work. Otherwise over half the population of the US would be pot smokers. as it stands, less then 10% is. There's no reason to think that. Would you start smoking pot if it was legalized? People who want to smoke it, will smoke it regardless of legality. And people who don't want to smoke it, will not smoke it.
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:46 am
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan And yes, prohibition DOES work. Otherwise over half the population of the US would be pot smokers. as it stands, less then 10% is. There's no reason to think that. Would you start smoking pot if it was legalized? People who want to smoke it, will smoke it regardless of legality. And people who don't want to smoke it, will not smoke it. Unlike a lot of other countries, the US has a LONG tradition of justice and respect/fear for the law. It comes from the Old West days. Almost all Americans follow the laws due to fear of reprisal. We value Liberty so much here that Life without chance of parole is worse than the death penalty in some cases. That's why prohibition works. And no, I will never smoke it. Why would I smoke it after seeing everything I have? I have smoked ONCE in my entire life, and that's because i knid of had to. An Iraqi villiage elder refused to talk to us about paving a road through his village unless we smoked a hookah with him. It was straight tobacco. I will never do that again. THe only reason I did was because it was for a good cause.
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:55 am
So you're saying, you wouldn't smoke it, but half of the US is just waiting to become potheads? I have a hard time believing that.
Kind of related: I heard jaywalking is really common in the US. I was talking to some Americans who were visiting here, and they were surprised how everyone here waits for the green light to cross the street, even if the road is totally empty. So I'm not so sure about the US being the only country with respect for laws ...
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:12 am
Lord Redtail Rathan Artto Lord Redtail Rathan So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana? I'm not debating drinking age, I agree with it. Legalization of marijuana or any drug for that matter is open to debate no matter what country you come from - prohibition never works and only leads to financing criminal organizations. I'd think the US would have learned that lesson during the 1920s. And you realize if (god forbid) Marijuana was legalized, what's to say that a few years down the road, the argument will change to add another narcotic drug to the legality list?
Nice slippery slope fallacy. I'll tell you why not; marijuana is not like other, more dangerous drugs. You can't possibly overdose on marijuana, but people overdose on cocaine, heroin, meth, and LSD all the time. There are no harmful side effects other than short term memory loss and coughing, as opposed to other drugs that can seriously impair your brain, judgment and mobility. Marijuana's no worse, if not better, than alcohol. Why must it be grouped with those other drugs?
...because reality is finally better than your dreams...
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:31 am
Umbrae Ac Silentium Lord Redtail Rathan Artto Lord Redtail Rathan So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana? I'm not debating drinking age, I agree with it. Legalization of marijuana or any drug for that matter is open to debate no matter what country you come from - prohibition never works and only leads to financing criminal organizations. I'd think the US would have learned that lesson during the 1920s. And you realize if (god forbid) Marijuana was legalized, what's to say that a few years down the road, the argument will change to add another narcotic drug to the legality list?
Nice slippery slope fallacy. I'll tell you why not; marijuana is not like other, more dangerous drugs. You can't possibly overdose on marijuana, but people overdose on cocaine, heroin, meth, and LSD all the time. There are no harmful side effects other than short term memory loss and coughing, as opposed to other drugs that can seriously impair your brain, judgment and mobility. Marijuana's no worse, if not better, than alcohol. Why must it be grouped with those other drugs?
...because reality is finally better than your dreams... UAS, I'll have to point you to everything that'd been said prior to your post. Go back and read everything from Artto's first post following mine. Artto: Obviously you've never actually been to the states. The only place I've seen jaywalking as a common thing is NYC, LA, and Chicago. Houston, TX, the fourth largest city in the country, as well as Denver, CO, people stick to the crosswalks. I never said the ONLY country, guy. I said unlike a LOT OF OTHERS. You seriously need to stop twisting my words. If you're going to use something I said against me, at least quote me verbatim. And show me where I said half the US is waiting to become potheads? Show me where ANYONE says that. And why is it so hard to believe that someone who doesn't even really drink wouldn't smoke marijuana?
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 pm
Lord Redtail Rathan Umbrae Ac Silentium Lord Redtail Rathan Artto Lord Redtail Rathan So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana? I'm not debating drinking age, I agree with it. Legalization of marijuana or any drug for that matter is open to debate no matter what country you come from - prohibition never works and only leads to financing criminal organizations. I'd think the US would have learned that lesson during the 1920s. And you realize if (god forbid) Marijuana was legalized, what's to say that a few years down the road, the argument will change to add another narcotic drug to the legality list?
Nice slippery slope fallacy. I'll tell you why not; marijuana is not like other, more dangerous drugs. You can't possibly overdose on marijuana, but people overdose on cocaine, heroin, meth, and LSD all the time. There are no harmful side effects other than short term memory loss and coughing, as opposed to other drugs that can seriously impair your brain, judgment and mobility. Marijuana's no worse, if not better, than alcohol. Why must it be grouped with those other drugs?
...because reality is finally better than your dreams... UAS, I'll have to point you to everything that'd been said prior to your post. Go back and read everything from Artto's first post following mine. Artto: Obviously you've never actually been to the states. The only place I've seen jaywalking as a common thing is NYC, LA, and Chicago. Houston, TX, the fourth largest city in the country, as well as Denver, CO, people stick to the crosswalks. I never said the ONLY country, guy. I said unlike a LOT OF OTHERS. You seriously need to stop twisting my words. If you're going to use something I said against me, at least quote me verbatim. And show me where I said half the US is waiting to become potheads? Show me where ANYONE says that. And why is it so hard to believe that someone who doesn't even really drink wouldn't smoke marijuana?
Alright, I just read all of those posts, and the first thing I have to say is that you've committed so many logical fallacies and twisted facts that my brain can hardly process them all. Now, I'm going to point out each thing I found wrong in your posts. Keep in mind I'm being a little conservative here with what I'm responding to, as I want to keep this short as possible.
Quote: And a reason why Medical Marijuana will always be illegal is because Soldiers (All encompassing) have free health care, to include surgury or all kinds (Even one free cosmetic). So instead of marijuana, they get the issue fixed.
Artto was right when he said medicinal marijuana is not intended to be a curing drug, as you implied. Instead, it is used to treat symptoms and pain, just as morphine is. If the army can so strictly ration morphine, why can't it do the same for marijuana?
Quote: You can't leave out that marijuana is illegal "for the sake of arguement" because of the fact that your arguement don't exist then. But alas, there is some things to bring up as to WHY it's illegal and alcohol isn't...
Using the law as a source of argument is a really poor one, and relies on an appeal to tradition, albeit not a sentimental one. That's why he was right to leave out its legality for the sake of argument.
Quote: Alcohol related incidents involving a soldier that had been drinking is negligent compared to civillians, due to extensive training. A soldier is a lot of money...it takes the US almost $150,000 to train one soldier for nine weeks of Basic Combat Training. I personally am worth $1.2 million at this very moment.
That proves... what? Why alcohol is not allowed in the military? Bit of a red herring there.
Quote: The impairing effects of Marijuana are stronger than alcohol. And they take effect almost immediately, depending on your tolerance. It's not something you can sip on for a time and be used socially. And if I were sitting next to you and I was drinking and you weren't, no effect on you. If I were smoking weed and you weren't, you just got a contact high.
Those are entirely temporary, and it depends on the dosage. I can take two hits from a joint and only feel a little lightheaded.
Quote: Contrary to popular belief, marijuana frys your brain cells.
Not true. http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2009/MarijuanaBrain.htm
Quote: Alcohol only effects your liver, and only after a decent amount is consumed.
Not true. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/what-alcohol-really-does-to-your-body-516050.html
Quote: Alcohol is not addicting.
Not true. I don't even have to cite a source. What do you think alcoholics anonymous is?
Common myth. ANYTHING is theoretically addictive. Marijuana is relatively non-addictive compared to alcohol. http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/19/is-marijuana-addictive-it-depends-how-you-define-addiction/
Quote: And you have to remember that it's called a Gateway drug.
Another common myth about marijuana. http://scienceblog.com/12116/study-says-marijuana-no-gateway-drug/
Quote: Ever hear of PCP? most marijuana is laced with it these days.
I want a source for that. Anyway, that's not an argument to keep it illegal. That's actually similar to the reasons for legalization of prostitution in Amsterdam. If you legalize it, you have clean brothels with STD testing and condoms. In America, we have notoriously dirty prostitutes, and having sex with one is a sure way to get an infection. If you were to legalize marijuana (at least medicinal), bud sold by a pharmacy would not be laced with PCP. I can guarantee you that.
Quote: And marijuana loosens your inhibitions quicker and more powerfully than alcohol.
Source?
Quote: Seeing as how it would never be legalized, that question can't be answered.
Wow... circular reasoning.
Quote: Fine. Let me rephrase that. You can't get drunk sitting next to me while I drink, but you can get high.
First of all, no. I mean, maybe after an hour or so, a little shorter if there wasn't any ventilation, but otherwise, no, you'd hardly get high. Secondly, I can't possibly fathom why that's an argument to keep it illegal.
Quote: Bullshit. As you like to say "Source?" I know MANY a pot smoker that has never drank in their life.
The point he made was that saying marijuana is a gateway drug is most likely misrepresentation of statistics. Many people addicted to cocaine have gone to church before. Does that mean that going to church will get you addicted to cocaine? And chances are, it's simply got to do with the crowds you hang around. If you buy marijuana, you might be exposed to an array of harder drugs. That's just the way people deal. Also, don't bash him on asking for a source. Many people do that, especially on absurd-sounding claims.
Quote: Ask any DEA official, cop, doctor, or drug dealer that has been busted. Also: Check EVERY medical report on someone that was examined while high or coming off of it. Also: We had four soldiers pop hot for marijuana in my brigade. Every one of them also popped hot for PCP.
Show me a REAL source. You, the presenter of information, cannot ask someone else to go out of their way to find the information that YOU are saying is true. That last one, whether or not it can be proven, is simply statistics of small numbers. Fallacy.
Quote: Your experience is one against many many others. Most people when they get drunk get sad and lazy. Or talkative.
Nice weasel words. Many many others. Who, may I ask?
Quote: Your point of view comes from being Average Joe. My view comes from the Medical standpoint, where I can actually SEE what it's effects are.
Hah. Try again.
Quote: Quote: Got any more accessible sources? Nope. Sorry kid.
Well then, I'm sorry to tell you that in a formal debate, you would not win that point.
Quote: Again, medical standpoint. medicine reveals what the media and the people hide.
You mean to say a medical standpoint is against marijuana and the media and the people are for it? That's just funny.
Quote: Really? Sorry, but I'd rather believe my buddy who I'd trust with my life, as well as my Uncle, who can get me a lot more information on that then you ever could.
You sound a lot like that salesman fellow from Family Guy. "According to my uncle, who's a real wiz on volcanoes, a volcano is COMING THIS WAY!" Now, even if you could prove that these people said these things, it's still an argumentum ad verecundiam fallacy, and a pretty poor excuse of an authority on the subject. "My buddy who I'd trust with my life, as well as my Uncle." On the subject of drug laws in Amsterdam. Get back to me when you can quote CNN.
Quote: Your graph makes absolutely no sense to me.
That's your problem. I understand it perfectly.
Oh, let me stop you there. If you were going to say something along the lines of "I could show you the source" (which you did), your point's dismissed.
Quote: Personal experience does not hold any weight whatsoever here. Because my personal experience comes from fellow soldiers, and bars and clubs in the places I've been.
You just contradicted yourself. Make up your mind.
Quote: Let me rephrase that: I'd believe those two over you, and the reasons they give me have nothing to do with tourism. And to give you an idea of my Uncle, I'd believe him over the SG in a heartbeat.
Your logic is frighteningly absurd. Did they just tell you these things second hand? Is this like Anthony Crispino from Weekend Update on Saturday Night Live? And all of a sudden you're taking his word over the surgeon general? I thought you just credited the SG as a source. Wow.
Quote: I read that description. And the first link. They are so full of medicalese that they might as well stamp "Bullshit" all over the place.
.gov sites are government funded... You mean to tell me that a government medicinal report on the misuse of drugs is full of bullshit? Well played.
Quote: The reason it's going no where is because this is the wrong topic. And because we have two different sources and information as well as being from two different countries. And personally, and I mean no disrespect by this, but you're not in the US. So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana?
No, I could tell you the REAL reason it's not going anywhere, but I won't for fear of being scolded by my fellow crew members.
Quote: I said marijuana is MORE and is EASIER to become addicted to. And I'm talking a PERMENANT effect on the body.
And I'd like a source for both those statements. Otherwise, you admit they're your own pet theories.
Quote: Alcohol's effect on the mind is temporary.
In comparison to marijuana? No. HELL no. Earlier I pulled up a source on whether or not marijuana kills brain cells. The conclusion? No. http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/10-brain-myths9.htm
These sources were the first results when I typed in "Does marijuana kill brain cells?" and "Does alcohol kill brain cells?" As you can see, the question is unbiased. First results = most relevant, most popular, and more often than not, most accurate.
Quote: But stick to legalization of a drug in the area you're from. That way you actually have valid arguments.
Pray tell what makes England so different than America on this discussion.
Quote: And you realize if (god forbid) Marijuana was legalized, what's to say that a few years down the road, the argument will change to add another narcotic drug to the legality list?
This is literally a textbook example of a slippery slope fallacy.
"A slippery slope fallacy is an argument that says adopting one policy or taking one action will lead to a series of other policies or actions also being taken, without showing a causal connection between the advocated policy and the consequent policies. A popular example of the slippery slope fallacy is, "If we legalize marijuana, the next thing you know we'll legalize heroin, LSD, and crack cocaine." This slippery slope is a form of non sequitur, because no reason has been provided for why legalization of one thing leads to legalization of another. Tobacco and alcohol are currently legal, and yet other drugs have somehow remained illegal."
Quote: And no matter what you do, there will always be criminal organizations, even for s**t that IS legal. Music...movies...games...alcohol...tobacco...firearms...
No...? What the ********? Firearms maybe, but they aren't always legal, especially to young adults.
Quote: And yes, prohibition DOES work.
No, it doesn't. Ever heard of a guy named Al Capone? Huge crime sprees of the 1920s? What prohibition leads to is the dirty, homemade beer that was secretly stored in speakeasies. It leads to death and disease from those who drank it. The beer was stored in bathtubs and had run-offs of soap. People got sick, but people were still desperate for it. Prohibition is the reason why we have drug dealers who are involved in gang activity which maximizes the efforts of selling illegal drugs. That makes a great reason to legalize it. It might cut back on gang activity, as well as making sure the weed was clean and "PCP free," as you say it isn't.
Quote: Otherwise over half the population of the US would be pot smokers. as it stands, less then 10% is.
I don't buy that. Where do you pull these statistics from? And guess what, if that were true, welcome to a billion dollar industry! That's another great reason for legalization. You could save the whole damn economy I'll betcha. America has huge fertile fields just waiting for hemp seeds to be sowed. America could gain billions in domestic funds, and possibly millions with trade to and from Amsterdam, if it remains legal there.
Quote: Almost all Americans follow the laws due to fear of reprisal.
Right... that's why we have overcrowded jail cells and New Orleans is one of the highest ranked cities for homicide in the world. That's also why 10% of Americans smoke weed, as you said earlier.
Quote: That's why prohibition works.
Prohibition doesn't work. That's why they repealed the 18th amendment.
"When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before." - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
Quote: I never said the ONLY country, guy. I said unlike a LOT OF OTHERS.
The point he made was that America is just the opposite of what you're saying. A country with less recognition and fear of the law.
...because reality is finally better than your dreams...
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:41 pm
Lord Redtail Rathan And show me where I said half the US is waiting to become potheads? Here you go: Lord Redtail Rathan And yes, prohibition DOES work. Otherwise over half the population of the US would be pot smokers. Please, reinterpret that for me.
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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:49 pm
It feels like this topic got off track in the later pages.
I believe that at 18 you are an adult, therefore should be able to make adult decisions like drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, Driving, enlisting in the military and etc.
And quite frankly most of americans should have grown up with drinking so we don't have the results of young adults driving drunk, getting so drunk they almost die and etc.
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:57 pm
- - ♥ - -
I agree with Hoodie, for the most part.
Legally you are an adult and if it were as simple as that then I would be all for lowering the drinking age...
But I think maturity is a huge issue with a vast majority of the teen population. A lot would have to change before I would even consider letting "kids" have full power over their alcohol consumption. I have a biased opinion though, as my father's alcoholism destroyed my childhood rolleyes
Definitely all for raising driving age though. It scares me that there are 14 year old kids out there behind the wheel (with permits I suppose, but still.)
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Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:30 pm
I think it should, it should be 18. At 18, you graduate from high school, you're legally an adult. I understand 21 year olds are way more mature then 18 year olds. But most people start drinking by 14-16, and if they're terrible drinkers, they would probably know they turn 18.
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![[ Hoodie ]'s avatar](https://a1cdn.gaiaonline.com/dress-up/avatar/ava/9d/81/92deee31819d_flip.png?t=1399753867_6.00_01)
