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 Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:54 pm
Bouidicca Semiremis In Medias Res IV Riiko..Izawa Yuck-FOO I'm in a very fragile state of mind so I ask that if you must squash me do so without killing me. I will tell you what I believe so please do not be upset. Since the beginning of time we have been filled with what is right and what was wrong by God. He has told us what is right and he has told us what is wrong. You ask why being a homosexual is a sin, and I answer look at the consensus. If most people think it's a sin it probably is, why?, because since the beginning of time we knew what was right and what was wrong. Geez, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to "squash" you. I don't see why this whole topic is such a freaking big deal. It doesn't matter. I'm going to state my opinion as gently as I can. You say you think it's a sin because God said so and because the bible said so, even if it doesn't make sense (I'm saying it doesn't make sense because it's not immoral). I am completely fine with that as long as you follow all of the other things in the bible that don't make sense. (burn a bull on the altar Lev.1:9, not being near women when they are one their period Lev.15:19- 24, not eating shellfish Lev. 11:10) I know you probably don't though. I'm sorry, I'm just telling you what I believe. There are only three people in this guild who are allowed to make an argument with Leviticus, and neither one of us have a problem with homosexuality, one is even gay and the other bisexual! *grins* Can I veto that? It's a part of the holy text of a lot more than three people in this guild. @ Yuck-FOO, Argumentum ad antiquitatem is a widely used fallacy in debates. Just because something was viewed as okay and good by society at one point in time (or throughout a large period of time) doesn't mean that it should continue. Take slavery in US history for example, for a long time it was okay to treat black people as sub-human because the vast majority of the people believed it to be true. An argument needs to illustrate why that long held tradition is a good thing that should be continued when challenged. So basically you could use the argument but you would also have to show why it should be continued to the exclusion of other forms of marriage. People also used the Bible to treat blacks as second class as they interpreted the Mark of Cain to be black skin. And the abolitionists who finally brought about the defeat of slavery quoted the Bible, as well. There will always be many people that try to justify their actions using whatever religion is most legitimate in their society-- this does not reflect on the particular religion.
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:48 pm
Nebulance Bouidicca Semiremis In Medias Res IV Riiko..Izawa Geez, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to "squash" you. I don't see why this whole topic is such a freaking big deal. It doesn't matter. I'm going to state my opinion as gently as I can. You say you think it's a sin because God said so and because the bible said so, even if it doesn't make sense (I'm saying it doesn't make sense because it's not immoral). I am completely fine with that as long as you follow all of the other things in the bible that don't make sense. (burn a bull on the altar Lev.1:9, not being near women when they are one their period Lev.15:19- 24, not eating shellfish Lev. 11:10) I know you probably don't though. I'm sorry, I'm just telling you what I believe. There are only three people in this guild who are allowed to make an argument with Leviticus, and neither one of us have a problem with homosexuality, one is even gay and the other bisexual! *grins* Can I veto that? It's a part of the holy text of a lot more than three people in this guild. @ Yuck-FOO, Argumentum ad antiquitatem is a widely used fallacy in debates. Just because something was viewed as okay and good by society at one point in time (or throughout a large period of time) doesn't mean that it should continue. Take slavery in US history for example, for a long time it was okay to treat black people as sub-human because the vast majority of the people believed it to be true. An argument needs to illustrate why that long held tradition is a good thing that should be continued when challenged. So basically you could use the argument but you would also have to show why it should be continued to the exclusion of other forms of marriage. People also used the Bible to treat blacks as second class as they interpreted the Mark of Cain to be black skin. And the abolitionists who finally brought about the defeat of slavery quoted the Bible, as well. There will always be many people that try to justify their actions using whatever religion is most legitimate in their society-- this does not reflect on the particular religion. Agreed, but it's not just the way we interpret it, there are some things in the bible that are just wrong. Exodus 21:7 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:00 am
Riddle me this: if homosexuality is "unnatural" and God doesn't want us to do it, why is homosexual behavior nearly universal across the animal kingdom? I'm not talking just a few oddball exceptions, but universally.
You may say that we are different from animals and God has made us so, but then why would He show us so many examples in nature over and over again of this behavior? And He would be showing us that it must work out alright, since it's so prevalent.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:46 pm
alteregoivy Riddle me this: if homosexuality is "unnatural" and God doesn't want us to do it, why is homosexual behavior nearly universal across the animal kingdom? I'm not talking just a few oddball exceptions, but universally. You may say that we are different from animals and God has made us so, but then why would He show us so many examples in nature over and over again of this behavior? And He would be showing us that it must work out alright, since it's so prevalent. Hmm, let's see. Some animals also eat their young, rape their mates, or eat their own feces. Btw, I'd like to see some citation on that claim that homosexuality is a universally natural behavior across the animal kingdom. Because I'm highly doubtful of it.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:15 pm
Nebulance alteregoivy Riddle me this: if homosexuality is "unnatural" and God doesn't want us to do it, why is homosexual behavior nearly universal across the animal kingdom? I'm not talking just a few oddball exceptions, but universally. You may say that we are different from animals and God has made us so, but then why would He show us so many examples in nature over and over again of this behavior? And He would be showing us that it must work out alright, since it's so prevalent. Hmm, let's see. Some animals also eat their young, rape their mates, or eat their own feces. Btw, I'd like to see some citation on that claim that homosexuality is a universally natural behavior across the animal kingdom. Because I'm highly doubtful of it. So you admit just because it's natural doesn't make it right, correct? So you must also admit just because it's unnatural, that doesn't make it wrong, right? So the argument as to weather it's natural or not really doesn't come into play.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:28 pm
Riiko..Izawa Nebulance alteregoivy Riddle me this: if homosexuality is "unnatural" and God doesn't want us to do it, why is homosexual behavior nearly universal across the animal kingdom? I'm not talking just a few oddball exceptions, but universally. You may say that we are different from animals and God has made us so, but then why would He show us so many examples in nature over and over again of this behavior? And He would be showing us that it must work out alright, since it's so prevalent. Hmm, let's see. Some animals also eat their young, rape their mates, or eat their own feces. Btw, I'd like to see some citation on that claim that homosexuality is a universally natural behavior across the animal kingdom. Because I'm highly doubtful of it. So you admit just because it's natural doesn't make it right, correct? So you must also admit just because it's unnatural, that doesn't make it wrong, right? So the argument as to weather it's natural or not really doesn't come into play. I'm saying that there's a difference between what may be normally occuring behavior and God-designed behavior-- behavior that is 'fitting,' or morally natural. Obviously, it is not 'unnatural' (in one sense of the word) for humans to be homosexual, simply because many of them are. But it may still be unfitting, in the sense that God designed it to work another way. You ask, why would so many humans be homosexual today, if God designed us differently? The answer, as the Bible gives it to us, is that humans brought this down upon themselves.Forgive the length of the passage I'm quoting here-- I want to make sure it's in proper context-- but I've put the key bits in bold for you: Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Rom 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Homosexuality is simply a part of the sinful nature that we inherit. Everyone is not disposed to every sin, but everyone has their nature distorted in some way because of the Fall.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:03 pm
-steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down-
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:30 pm
Obito319 All I have to say is it's their afterlife if they want to do what their doing go ahead... I personally don't think it is natural and not a real good way to pass down your genes but I don't really mind them just so long as their nice people to hang out with my logic for this is "I don't care where you stick your privates but I don't want anything to do with them", it's the same for Bi's I don't want anything to do with a girls v****a I'm a lesbian, not infertile.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:35 pm
my complete and humblest appologies by that I meant passing the genes through homosexual sex... I am sorry if that offended you in any way
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:36 pm
Obito319 my complete and humblest appologies by that I meant passing the genes through homosexual sex... I am sorry if that offended you in any way You offended me as soon as you said I am not natural. I can't exactly CHOOSE to be homosexual. I didn't choose to be like this. G-d made me this way.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:02 pm
I'm so sorry Medias... I was talking about the sexual action... the attraction part is though completely natural (I find any way by some scientific items bisexual friends I love to death found) also I just had surgery this morning and haven't been taking my iron pills for anemia so the flame editing part of my brain isn't working as it should
again my humblest apologies I didn't mean to offend anyone but if it would make you feel better I will edit the statement as to make it less offensive
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:05 pm
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others.
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:11 pm
Nebulance In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. There's no such thing as fallen nature. I can't change who I am attracted to. I'm so ******** done with this guild. Instead of spreading love and tolerance, most of the Christians here spread intolerance and hate. Thanks for affirming why I stopped being a Christian after years and years of indoctrination. I too at one point in time thought that it was a sin to be homosexual, then I tried to KILL MYSELF numerous times for being gay and loathed myself because G-d would surely hate me, right? You guys really need to smarten up. Sorry, Hashem is loving, not evil, mean, and intolerant.
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