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Woutan Kuunsuru

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:11 pm


Daughter of Tepes
Keine's power doesn't affect memories. Remember how in IN, Keine hid the history of the human village existing, making it invisible, but all of the cast still remember it and notice that it's gone.
As far as human Keine's power goes, history is defined as any given event happening at any point in time. Having any memories or remembrances pop into conscience is an event that has happened in history (in past history, to be more specific); thus, I really don't see why Keine's power would be unable to affect memories.

I guess the cast still remembers the human village because in order to delete the memory of the village from their minds, Keine should have known beforehand that Reimu & Co. still held an active remembrance of the village. Being able to change history doesn't mean you know all history as well.

As a counter-argument to this, one could quote her ingame profile: "There is not one thing about the history of Gensokyo that she does not know". However, according to Hieda no Akyuu, she doesn't fully hold Gensokyo's knowledge if she's not in hakutaku form; her PMiSS entry says "When in human form, has the ability to consume history; when in hakutaku form, holds all of Gensokyo's knowledge and has the ability to create history". She wasn't in hakutaku form by the time the stage 3 events took place, so it's quite a possibility that Keine can change memories but she didn't do it during the fake moon incident simply because she didn't knew of such memories existing, to begin with.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:45 pm


Wotan Manasal
Daughter of Tepes
Keine's power doesn't affect memories. Remember how in IN, Keine hid the history of the human village existing, making it invisible, but all of the cast still remember it and notice that it's gone.
As far as human Keine's power goes, history is defined as any given event happening at any point in time. Having any memories or remembrances pop into conscience is an event that has happened in history (in past history, to be more specific); thus, I really don't see why Keine's power would be unable to affect memories.

I guess the cast still remembers the human village because in order to delete the memory of the village from their minds, Keine should have known beforehand that Reimu & Co. still held an active remembrance of the village. Being able to change history doesn't mean you know all history as well.

As a counter-argument to this, one could quote her ingame profile: "There is not one thing about the history of Gensokyo that she does not know". However, according to Hieda no Akyuu, she doesn't fully hold Gensokyo's knowledge if she's not in hakutaku form; her PMiSS entry says "When in human form, has the ability to consume history; when in hakutaku form, holds all of Gensokyo's knowledge and has the ability to create history". She wasn't in hakutaku form by the time the stage 3 events took place, so it's quite a possibility that Keine can change memories but she didn't do it during the fake moon incident simply because she didn't knew of such memories existing, to begin with.
I'm confused. @.@

-9- Cirno Ice Fairy -9-


Woutan Kuunsuru

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:29 pm


-9- Cirno Ice Fairy -9-
Wotan Manasal
Daughter of Tepes
Keine's power doesn't affect memories. [...]
[theory]
I'm confused. @.@
Basically, I'm saying that Keine can affect memories, because by just remembering anything, you are already making an event in history, and Keine can manipulate history.

But this raises a question: On Imperishable Night, the cast still remembers the human village after Keine hid it from history; if Keine can manipulate memories, why didn't she erase the memories of the human village from the protagonists' minds? She could have saved herself the trouble of fighting them if she did so.

To answer that question, I quoted both her game profile (that says she knows everything about Gensokyo) and her PMiSS article (that says she only knows everything about Gensokyo when she is in her hakutaku form). By looking at both of those sources and remembering Keine wasn't in hakutaku mode when she met the protagonists on the village, I came to a conclusion. Being able to change history at any given time doesn't imply you know everything about history at any given time, as well. Keine didn't erase all the memories the protagonists had of the human village because she didn't know they still had them. It's that simple.

If you still don't understand what I'm trying to say, feel free to blame my sub par knowledge of the English language. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:30 pm


-9- Cirno Ice Fairy -9-
Wotan Manasal
Daughter of Tepes
Keine's power doesn't affect memories. Remember how in IN, Keine hid the history of the human village existing, making it invisible, but all of the cast still remember it and notice that it's gone.
As far as human Keine's power goes, history is defined as any given event happening at any point in time. Having any memories or remembrances pop into conscience is an event that has happened in history (in past history, to be more specific); thus, I really don't see why Keine's power would be unable to affect memories.

I guess the cast still remembers the human village because in order to delete the memory of the village from their minds, Keine should have known beforehand that Reimu & Co. still held an active remembrance of the village. Being able to change history doesn't mean you know all history as well.

As a counter-argument to this, one could quote her ingame profile: "There is not one thing about the history of Gensokyo that she does not know". However, according to Hieda no Akyuu, she doesn't fully hold Gensokyo's knowledge if she's not in hakutaku form; her PMiSS entry says "When in human form, has the ability to consume history; when in hakutaku form, holds all of Gensokyo's knowledge and has the ability to create history". She wasn't in hakutaku form by the time the stage 3 events took place, so it's quite a possibility that Keine can change memories but she didn't do it during the fake moon incident simply because she didn't knew of such memories existing, to begin with.
I'm confused. @.@



In other words, history is corrupted due to her.

Youthful Scarlet Sister

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Cirno Thunder Fairy

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:33 pm


People took a user called "Cirno Ice Fairy" saying "I'm confused" seriously? rofl
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:38 pm


Cirno Thunder Fairy
People took a user called "Cirno Ice Fairy" saying "I'm confused" seriously? rofl
I didn't know whether she was joking or not (that account has made "serious" posts here before), and if she wasn't joking, calling her a baka for not understanding would've been too harsh. So yeah.

Woutan Kuunsuru


Cirno Thunder Fairy

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:56 pm


You speak to the same person as -9- Cirno Ice Fairy -9- and -9- Cirno Fire Fairy -9-. The only reason this account has no 9s in the name is that I ran out of character space.

I understood your explanation quite clearly the first time. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:00 pm


Cirno Thunder Fairy
You speak to the same person as -9- Cirno Ice Fairy -9- and -9- Cirno Fire Fairy -9-.
Thought so. ^-^

Woutan Kuunsuru


Valo

Magnetic Lunatic

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:12 pm


The thing about Keine's ability is that she can consume and conceal history, but not entirely remove it. Thus the major effects and appearance of things will disappear, but more subtle effects and memory will remain.

This is in part because Keine literally must make history out of major events for them to be the true history of Gensokyo. She does not impact the initial perception and creation of memory, only the end result. Also, she can not influence history of others at all, like how she can't touch the history given to and maintained by Akyuu.

...That's what I gleaned from Perfect Memento, anyway. Take it as you will.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:35 pm


Valo
The thing about Keine's ability is that she can consume and conceal history, but not entirely remove it. Thus the major effects and appearance of things will disappear, but more subtle effects and memory will remain.

This is in part because Keine literally must make history out of major events for them to be the true history of Gensokyo. She does not impact the initial perception and creation of memory, only the end result. Also, she can not influence history of others at all, like how she can't touch the history given to and maintained by Akyuu.

...That's what I gleaned from Perfect Memento, anyway. Take it as you will.


>.> maybe she's just wiping the minds off of gensokyo because she teaches the wrong stuff to the kids.

Youthful Scarlet Sister

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MISAKA 10820

PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:24 am


*Runs by*
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:40 am


Ok, i will just throw a random "What if?" question...

What would happen if Hieda and Keine met?
One who remembers all she sees and one who can erase CERTAIN history.

My vision would be like the Immovable object vs the unstoppable force.

Parth Makeo

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MidBossVyers

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:13 pm


Does anyone know where I can get that manga that spoofs Power Rangers with Kaguya "being free after 10000 years" and wanting "to conquer Earth"?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:32 pm


MidBossVyers
Does anyone know where I can get that manga that spoofs Power Rangers with Kaguya "being free after 10000 years" and wanting "to conquer Earth"?
Here you go. Enjoy it.

Woutan Kuunsuru


Hanzo Komeiji

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:33 pm


MidBossVyers
Does anyone know where I can get that manga that spoofs Power Rangers with Kaguya "being free after 10000 years" and wanting "to conquer Earth"?


Try asking Wotan, he might know.
Or Colm.
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Gensokyo - The Touhou Project Guild

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