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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:59 pm
sachiko_sohma Undiscovered Artist Winged Isis O.M.F.G. This is not so much as for the abortion side of the post, but for the historical inaccuracies/over-simplification. I'm a Tudor buff and when I read something like this my brain hurts. Quote: If a woman wants to abort a child because it's not the gender she wanted, maybe it's best that she do it. Being born into a sexist family like that isn't good. Anyone ever heard of Bloody Mary? Her daddy was a guy called Henry VIII and he treated her like crap her whole life just because she wasn't a son. He treated her mother like crap too, because, after all, women magically have the ability to pick the sex of their children. Growing up in that situation resulted in her having some "issues" later in life. Namely that she was insanely jealous of her little sister and she had this habit of burning people at the stake because they didn't think like her. Unquote. Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but it does show the state of their logic, ability to reason and frankly their level of education. This is a lazy argument. If a parent would treat their child poorly because he or she is not the gender the parent wanted, are we just gonna sit back and say, "Whelp, guess they should've gotten an abortion." Instead of using abortion, how about we work to better the children's lives. It seems a lot more logical and effective to me, and shows you really do care. surprised In the same way, feminists should be working for a pregnant woman's rights. They sit back and say, "Well, since a pregnant woman would be looked down upon by much of society, she should get an abortion so she can gain respect!!" If you are a true feminist, your statement should be, "We should work on that and get pregnant women more respect." So, saying someone can't be a feminist and pro-life is not true in the least. Anyway, a really stupid argument I heard once is, "Abortion is like a period!!" Um... does the egg cell have a heartbeat? Because less than 10 days after conception, the fetus (which is barely even a fetus and more of a "bunch of tissue" in an egg cell) already has a heartbeat. I've seen physical evidence of this. (Oh and by the way, for those who are skeptic about this statement, I reccomend watching "The Incredible Human Body." My chemistry teacher showed us that movie. It shows you a lot about pregnancy, as well as brain tumors. smile ) Something really interesting is that when my best friend's mother was pregnant with her, the doctors kept urging her to get an abortion. "We are 100% sure that your child will be born with severe Down Syndrome," she recalls them urging. 16 years later, my friend is perfectly fine without the smallest hint of Down Syndrome. GASP! THE DOCTORS WERE ACTUALLY WRONG!!! eek surprised eek surprised wahmbulance wahmbulance wahmbulance burning_eyes eek gonk rolleyes It takes longer then ten days for a heart beat. At ten days, I believe it's an embryo and it doesn't become a fetus until eight weeks (according to medical dictionaries). If I remember, between week 3-8 is when it starts to devolp organs and around the time it becomes a fetus, it starts to look more like a human and take shape. But I get your point and yes it is sort of an silly argument. The clostest thing to that argument is the EC pill and that only works up to 74 hours or so (before it is planted into the uterus, if the egg is even fertilized). EC is basicly a stronger form of Birth Control, that's why. Yes doctors can be wrong too, noone is perfect. But something similer happened to one of my mom's friends. I know it's still an embryo before 10 days. I know it doesn't have any organs (much less a heart). But it DOES pump blood. In the video we watched in chemistry, a woman was getting in vitro fertilization. 27 eggs were taken from her and 13 out of those 27 became fertilized. He showed a 400x zoomed view of one of the fertilized eggs and showed a heartbeat (well more of blood pumping). It hadn't even been 10 days after the conception, because 3 of the fertilized eggs were put into the woman's uterus on the 10th day and this was before the 10th day. It was amazing, really. eek What was the situation with your mom's friend? (If you don't mind my asking sweatdrop )
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Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:07 pm
La Veuve Zin Undiscovered Artist Anyway, a really stupid argument I heard once is, "Abortion is like a period!!" Why is it so difficult for some people to grasp that women do not ovulate when they menstruate? rolleyes ...Then nobody would get pregnant... Aaah, exactly! The sad part is, the first time I heard that argument, a girl had said it. emo How disheartening. crying But even when it's ovulation, it's not like abortion because the egg is not fertilized. Sure, it's a cell. But ovulation can be more easily and correctly compared to taking your finger and scraping it on the inside of your mouth. What do you get? A bunch of cells. biggrin But in abortion, what you are destroying is a fertilized egg. Something that is growing into a human. Something more alive and closer to us than just cells. It's a lot different. Why else would your body naturally get rid of the unfertilized egg rather than the fertilized egg? 4laugh
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Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:45 pm
divineseraph I.Am It's not the embryo of a chicken unless it's been fertilized, and that rarely, if ever, happens in your regular supermarket eggs. xd Until it's fertilized, all it is is, well, a chicken's egg. razz Exactly. It is just like when a woman menstrates. Which is how I explained it to my vegetarian teacher when she said she wasn't sure if she should et eggs or not based on the fact that it could be like eating a chicken abortion. I'm not sure my explanation made her any more satisfied with eggs, but eh. She isn't a biology teacher, is she?
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Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:26 pm
La Veuve Zin divineseraph I.Am It's not the embryo of a chicken unless it's been fertilized, and that rarely, if ever, happens in your regular supermarket eggs. xd Until it's fertilized, all it is is, well, a chicken's egg. razz Exactly. It is just like when a woman menstrates. Which is how I explained it to my vegetarian teacher when she said she wasn't sure if she should et eggs or not based on the fact that it could be like eating a chicken abortion. I'm not sure my explanation made her any more satisfied with eggs, but eh. She isn't a biology teacher, is she? That's too handy an explanation for the multitude of people who say, "But a fetus isn't alive!"
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:48 pm
I hate to have to put it here, but this is one of the smartest things I've heard: Debonair Silver Dragonair Presumably, if a female-bodied child-free pro-lifer was pregnant, the wish not to kill would trump the wish not to have children. Lesser evil, greater evil, y'know? By Jove, I think she's got it.
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 9:05 pm
La Veuve Zin I hate to have to put it here, but this is one of the smartest things I've heard: Debonair Silver Dragonair Presumably, if a female-bodied child-free pro-lifer was pregnant, the wish not to kill would trump the wish not to have children. Lesser evil, greater evil, y'know? By Jove, I think she's got it.
She doesn't mind debating with me, and she doesn't think I'm stupid, and likes some my reasoning/politeness in the debate.
One of the better choicers I've come across.<3
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Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:19 pm
I like Dragonair too! Much better than Dratini or Dragonite. :3
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 11:23 am
Undiscovered Artist sachiko_sohma Undiscovered Artist Winged Isis O.M.F.G. This is not so much as for the abortion side of the post, but for the historical inaccuracies/over-simplification. I'm a Tudor buff and when I read something like this my brain hurts. Quote: If a woman wants to abort a child because it's not the gender she wanted, maybe it's best that she do it. Being born into a sexist family like that isn't good. Anyone ever heard of Bloody Mary? Her daddy was a guy called Henry VIII and he treated her like crap her whole life just because she wasn't a son. He treated her mother like crap too, because, after all, women magically have the ability to pick the sex of their children. Growing up in that situation resulted in her having some "issues" later in life. Namely that she was insanely jealous of her little sister and she had this habit of burning people at the stake because they didn't think like her. Unquote. Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but it does show the state of their logic, ability to reason and frankly their level of education. This is a lazy argument. If a parent would treat their child poorly because he or she is not the gender the parent wanted, are we just gonna sit back and say, "Whelp, guess they should've gotten an abortion." Instead of using abortion, how about we work to better the children's lives. It seems a lot more logical and effective to me, and shows you really do care. surprised In the same way, feminists should be working for a pregnant woman's rights. They sit back and say, "Well, since a pregnant woman would be looked down upon by much of society, she should get an abortion so she can gain respect!!" If you are a true feminist, your statement should be, "We should work on that and get pregnant women more respect." So, saying someone can't be a feminist and pro-life is not true in the least. Anyway, a really stupid argument I heard once is, "Abortion is like a period!!" Um... does the egg cell have a heartbeat? Because less than 10 days after conception, the fetus (which is barely even a fetus and more of a "bunch of tissue" in an egg cell) already has a heartbeat. I've seen physical evidence of this. (Oh and by the way, for those who are skeptic about this statement, I reccomend watching "The Incredible Human Body." My chemistry teacher showed us that movie. It shows you a lot about pregnancy, as well as brain tumors. smile ) Something really interesting is that when my best friend's mother was pregnant with her, the doctors kept urging her to get an abortion. "We are 100% sure that your child will be born with severe Down Syndrome," she recalls them urging. 16 years later, my friend is perfectly fine without the smallest hint of Down Syndrome. GASP! THE DOCTORS WERE ACTUALLY WRONG!!! eek surprised eek surprised wahmbulance wahmbulance wahmbulance burning_eyes eek gonk rolleyes It takes longer then ten days for a heart beat. At ten days, I believe it's an embryo and it doesn't become a fetus until eight weeks (according to medical dictionaries). If I remember, between week 3-8 is when it starts to devolp organs and around the time it becomes a fetus, it starts to look more like a human and take shape. But I get your point and yes it is sort of an silly argument. The clostest thing to that argument is the EC pill and that only works up to 74 hours or so (before it is planted into the uterus, if the egg is even fertilized). EC is basicly a stronger form of Birth Control, that's why. Yes doctors can be wrong too, noone is perfect. But something similer happened to one of my mom's friends. I know it's still an embryo before 10 days. I know it doesn't have any organs (much less a heart). But it DOES pump blood. In the video we watched in chemistry, a woman was getting in vitro fertilization. 27 eggs were taken from her and 13 out of those 27 became fertilized. He showed a 400x zoomed view of one of the fertilized eggs and showed a heartbeat (well more of blood pumping). It hadn't even been 10 days after the conception, because 3 of the fertilized eggs were put into the woman's uterus on the 10th day and this was before the 10th day. It was amazing, really. eek What was the situation with your mom's friend? (If you don't mind my asking sweatdrop ) From what I remember, they told her someone was wrong with the baby, it won't be normal if it lived (I can't remember much but she kept miscarring) and they said she should abort, she refused to do so and though the baby had some problems when he was born, he is fine now.
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:59 am
OK, so, I'm used to puzzling pro-choice posts and pro-choicers, but last night this one was so...I don't know. Not the most confounding and offensive exchange I've been in, but it did make me a little mad. She said: Quote: Until you make a readily-available contraception that's free, has no negative effects, and is completely failproof, I will continue to exercise my right to remove unwanted persons from my uterus. Thus, abortions are not a thing of the past. I responded: Quote: We already have contraception like that; it's called abstinence. She responded: Quote: Nice try, no cigar. Then again, I brought this on myself. I should have read who made this thread, and then ran the other way. Um...what?
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:18 am
Rofl, I love the epic fail.
Abstinence is failproof, this is true. Having sex and saying that abstinence failed is like not using a condom and saying the condom failed.
She got logically stomped, and in turn fled with a weak ad hominem.
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:47 pm
divineseraph Rofl, I love the epic fail. Abstinence is failproof, this is true. Having sex and saying that abstinence failed is like not using a condom and saying the condom failed. She got logically stomped, and in turn fled with a weak ad hominem. Yes it's funny how they claim that we are wrong then leave when they don't have a really having a good arguement. It's like how they believe a fetus is not a person because "the law says so" or I pointed out some laws in the past, including slavery and all they said was "so?". Then they said it was because they can't think and they are depend on people so I pointed out coma pateints and asked them does that no make a person either (what they are discribing were coma patients, vetables and people that are brain dead) and they said "it's different because they aren't using my body". Some of their arguements are weak and when all else fails they mock and insult us and then run away.
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:50 am
What's even funnier is, this wasn't some new poster whom I've never met. Me and that poster have locked antlers several times. She's a reg in the Abortion Debate threads.
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:14 am
She probably didn't realize who it was when she replied, then when she figured out who you were and knew you wouldn't take the bullshit, she ducked out.
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:46 am
sachiko_sohma divineseraph Rofl, I love the epic fail. Abstinence is failproof, this is true. Having sex and saying that abstinence failed is like not using a condom and saying the condom failed. She got logically stomped, and in turn fled with a weak ad hominem. Yes it's funny how they claim that we are wrong then leave when they don't have a really having a good arguement. It's like how they believe a fetus is not a person because "the law says so" or I pointed out some laws in the past, including slavery and all they said was "so?". Then they said it was because they can't think and they are depend on people so I pointed out coma pateints and asked them does that no make a person either (what they are discribing were coma patients, vetables and people that are brain dead) and they said "it's different because they aren't using my body". Some of their arguements are weak and when all else fails they mock and insult us and then run away. I love the "It's legal so it must be morally acceptable!" argument, it's so easy to tear them apart. I used it once IRL and chuckled to myself as the choicer stammered, at a logical loss, for about 3 minutes before changing the subject.
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Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:30 am
Quote: Until you make a readily-available contraception that's free, has no negative effects, and is completely failproof, I will continue to exercise my right to remove unwanted persons from my uterus. Thus, abortions are not a thing of the past. Hell, you don't need abstinence, even. It's called oral sex. And frankly, if you're not satisfied with that...that's your problem. Even immature little boys I've met who were like "waaaahh!! I want p***y!!! crying " had to agree that they'd rather get a b*****b and not be a daddy than the alternative. Even if I would get an abortion if I got pregnant, I'd make the guy pay for it. I mean, these people claim abortions aren't fun. So...if you don't want to have to have one, and you don't want to have a baby, there's only one way to guarantee this: no vaginal sex. Sorry, legal abortion doesn't solve the problem of unwanted pregnancy--you still got pregnant--and life isn't fair. If I want to guarantee that I never die in a skydiving accident, I'll just have to never go skydiving. That's not fair, it's obviously a skydiver-hating conspiracy and I'm going to go whine about it in the ED. wahmbulance
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