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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:44 pm


Quote:
Actually, the Qu'ran teaches that Jews and Christians have access to their paradise, and that these two religions are to be respected as siblings.
Muhammad says similar things in the Surah, though I'm not an expert on the Qu'ran.


Hmm, really? I'm getting contradictory passages here...

i.e.

Quote:
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89


And there are a whole fiesta of passages which say non-Muslims will be "burned"

Quote:
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 72:23

Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17

Non-muslims will be tormented forever in the Fire. Allah will not have any mercy on them. 41:24

Allah will send disbelievers astray. Then he'll burn them in hell, increasing the flames from time to time. 17:97-98

Christians will cry out to Allah's "partners", but they won't hear them; Allah will send them to their doom. 18:52

Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72

Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 28:62-64

Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 58:4, 58:5, 84:22-24
Those who disobey Muhammed will go to hell. 58:8



etc... this is just a tiny selection of such passages in the Qur'an

oh, and the wonderful homage to the children of Abraham

Quote:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96


I'm no expert on the Qur'an either but *sigh*
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:51 pm


Then there's this, in the Surah:

Surah
"Nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say: "We are Christians"." - Surah 5:85

"Let there be no compulsion in religion" - Surah 2:256

"Oh mankind, We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into tribes and nations that you may know each other (not that you despise each other)" - Surah 49:13


And the prophet Muhammad, pbh, said this in his Last Sermon, 9 Dhul Hijjah 632:

Muhammad
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white, except by piety and good action."


And this is from the Qur'an:

Qur'an
"And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will experience corruption (exile) in the earth twice, but Ye will then after (thumma) ascend (ta’lunna) to a great height (or station)." - 17:4*

"Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in Allah, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve." - 2:62


I would like to point out that most of those passages which seem anti-semetic or generally narrow-minded were originally pointed at Judeans, who were militant, zealot Jews, not the Children of Israel. Hence Jesus is called "King of the Jews", not "King of Israel" as it means King of the militants because that's what they believed him to be, a soldier-king. The term Jew refered directly to these radical, violent rebels.

*Meaning that though we will have to suffer, Muslims believe that on the Last Day all pious Jewish people will go to heaven.

Behatzlacha-S

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:21 pm


Yes, I also remember reading these in the Qur'an (although I am sorry to say I haven't read the Hadiths). But it doesn't make the negative ones invalid. They're still there.

Quote:
I would like to point out that most of those passages which seem anti-semetic or generally narrow-minded were originally pointed at Judeans, who were militant, zealot Jews, not the Children of Israel. Hence Jesus is called "King of the Jews", not "King of Israel" as it means King of the militants because that's what they believed him to be, a soldier-king. The term Jew refered directly to these radical, violent rebels.


Why couldn't Allah have written specifically "the Judeans" rather than the blanket term "Jews"? (Although I understand this is a translation, the words are the same meaning in Arabic). It's like if I said "I hate Japanese people", do I mean only a certain specific group of Japanese people? It's ridiculous when you could just use the term for such a specific group.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:26 pm


The word "Jew" only became a term for the Jewish people in the 13th century. Before that it was the Hebrews, the Children of Israel, The Israelites, etc. So Jew was a specific term. It's like saying: "I hate Nazis" whereas some nowadays would simply say: "I hate Germany"

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:39 am


Quote:
The word "Jew" only became a term for the Jewish people in the 13th century. Before that it was the Hebrews, the Children of Israel, The Israelites, etc. So Jew was a specific term. It's like saying: "I hate Nazis" whereas some nowadays would simply say: "I hate Germany"


The more you know wink

But may I ask, why do you take such an apologetic stance with Islam?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:35 pm


It is our little brother, and though it may go a little odd at times, we still love it, faults and all. Our wars are squabbles, our peace talks are hugs. We may swear that we are not friends, but we are connected with each other. We have the same (that's right, the SAME) G-d, and parallel histories. We have so much more in common than we do in difference. So, we love our brother Islam, and our sister Christianity, for what they are and accept them.

It hurts when they turn against us, but time heals those wounds. They're still young. Eventually, they will mature. And then they will see us for what we are: a patient and caring father-figure, and in the end, they will have respect (if not adoration) for us and our contributions to the world we live in.

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:11 pm


Quote:
It is our little brother, and though it may go a little odd at times, we still love it, faults and all. Our wars are squabbles, our peace talks are hugs. We may swear that we are not friends, but we are connected with each other. We have the same (that's right, the SAME) G-d, and parallel histories. We have so much more in common than we do in difference. So, we love our brother Islam, and our sister Christianity, for what they are and accept them.

It hurts when they turn against us, but time heals those wounds. They're still young. Eventually, they will mature. And then they will see us for what we are: a patient and caring father-figure, and in the end, they will have respect (if not adoration) for us and our contributions to the world we live in.


You have a good heart mate and B'Ezrat Hashem you receive nothing but good in return. However, I just don't see this... The Qur'an sounds like someone was just orally told the basic gist of Torah and then wrote it down sometime later. It's full of inaccuracies and contradictions to the original scriptures. I'm guessing you've read the Qur'an, so you'll remember that in it not long after Allah orders to worship nothing but him, he orders his angel to worship his creation- man, or more specifically Adam, the angel then refuses repeating Allah's commandment, however Allah get's angry and exiles the angel. The G-d of the Qur'an sounds nothing like the G-d of the Torah. Islam might claim Abrahamic roots but it's roots are far from Abraham.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:32 pm


Well, Avrahim's first son, called Ishmael, was born to a woman other than his wife. Muslims claim that the covenant passed to the b*****d-child, Ishmael, while Jews know that the covenant passed on to the G-d-given child, Isaac. And that is how the two religions supposedly became parallel.

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:06 pm


Quote:
Well, Avrahim's first son, called Ishmael, was born to a woman other than his wife. Muslims claim that the covenant passed to the b*****d-child, Ishmael, while Jews know that the covenant passed on to the G-d-given child, Isaac. And that is how the two religions supposedly became parallel.


Yeah I get that, but as I said, the whole original Torah is (ironically) completely bastardized in the Qur'an, it sounds like some angsty teen diary written by someone regularly beaten as a child, but instead of Zac Efron coming and saving the angsty little bugger from life, it's Allah and instead of High School Musical singing, Allah orders Muhammad and his cronies to smite up the place with their smiting sticks.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:28 pm


As far as I know, Muhammad stood only for peace and harmony.

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itsthatKat

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:02 pm


Behatzlacha-S
As far as I know, Muhammad stood only for peace and harmony.


That's why he chose to deal so gently with the Zoroastrians (aka. "fire worshipers"). neutral
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:28 pm


I need to tell you that the original Quran made a strong distintion between Jews/Hebrews (we were called Yehudee), and Judeans. Also the hadiths in truth are 90% fake. Only 10% of them are for real. The original Quran was 125 chapters long, had 4 times as many passages and verses that celebrated Judaism and praised us, rather than degrade us. The ones that degraded us though were the ones that critisized us and the stupid things we have done. The original Quran also states very clearly that Jews are to be respected and protected by Muslims. And that Israel belongs to us and that Muslims are the ones that must help us reclaim Israel and be our allies.

It also states that we shall be exiled/expelled three times from our land (Israel) that Hashem/Allah has given us due to the wrongs and sins we have done in the past and then shall return each time making three returns to paradise (Israel). Upon the thrid return we will go through many battles with non-believers (of the any of the Abrahamic religions), we will have to prove ourselves many times, we will have to fight for our existance, and that each time we fight we shall be victorious and that our attackers will feel the wrath of Hashem/Allah on their bodies and souls. And the attackers will be sent to hell.

What is funny is how we have a prophecy that is nearly identical to that one.

The thing is that many Muslims now adays are being lied to and not being taught true Islam by their Imans and Mullahs. Only 10% of Muslims in the world actually know the truth and those are the same ones you see fighting for womens rights, being killed by other Muslims, and are pro-Israel and pro-Jewish.

Also many of the Qurans in the world are in truth fake and have added stuff to them that were put there by fanatics and radicals. Also a large amount of stuff that talks only about Israel, and Jews in extremely good ways have been totally removed by fanatics and radicals.

There are few real Qurans in the world today that have the full truth, and also many of the Qurans are mixed witht eh Hadiths which are also very violent.

Learn to read arabic or ask people to translate it to you and you will see there are things that are a bit wiggy.

Also when it says non-believers it means people that do not believe in one god. All people of the book (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Catholics, Muslims, Mani, Rasta, Druze, Bahai, Zoroastrians, and so forth are considered people of the book) are believers, non-believers are people who are not people of the book. But even then Muslims are strictly not allowed to kill anybody. Infidels are people who harm you, your family, your friends, your loved ones, and wish to turn you from your faith.

Zoroastrians didn't actually worship fire. You are thinking of the first Hindu god Agi. The god of fire. Brahman comes after him. Zoroastrians see fire as one of god's pure forms. Many other religions are the same. We in Judaism are the same. Example the burning bush. Also the fire they speak of is the same fire as that of the burning bush. A fire that heals and purifys and teaches. Not one that kills. The same is with water. They also influenced many of our traditions, prayers, beliefs and our names for Hashem. As we also did with them. We belive in many of the same principles. Judaism is also much older than Zoroastian.

Also true Muslims are pro-Israel and Pro-Jewish, worship Jesus as the messiah, believe in the virgin Mary, and understand that Jesus is not the messiah of the Jews. We have a different messiah. Joshua (Jesus) is the messiah to non-jews, and to Messiahnic Jews. (in truth they are ethnic Jews, that follow the original Christianity which was Judaism that believed in Joshua as the messiah. But today they are smack dab in the middle, but are considered by most as Chrisitian.). Our messiah first off can be of any race (most people think he will be black. That is a very long story. I will get into that later on), of any age, and in truth has been to earth before. So when the Christians say he will come a second time they are right. The messiah's soul was created before all other human souls, and saw what is happening and what is to happen before Hashem created Adam. If I got that right. But he was not Joshua.

Zumbi2


itsthatKat

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:19 pm


Quote:
Learn to read arabic or ask people to translate it to you and you will see there are things that are a bit wiggy.


Maybe another day when my life isn't so messy...

Quote:
Also when it says non-believers it means people that do not believe in one god. All people of the book (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Catholics, Muslims, Mani, Rasta, Druze, Bahai, Zoroastrians, and so forth are considered people of the book) are believers, non-believers are people who are not people of the book


How are Zoroastrians "people of the book"? Zoroastrianism isn't an Abrahamic religion...

Quote:
But even then Muslims are strictly not allowed to kill anybody. Infidels are people who harm you, your family, your friends, your loved ones, and wish to turn you from your faith.


But even regarding non-believers as people "not of the book", the Qur'an still tells Muslims to go and seek out atheists/polytheists/etc... and execute them. At least to my limited understanding.

Quote:
Zoroastrians didn't actually worship fire. You are thinking of the first Hindu god Agi. The god of fire. Brahman comes after him.


Oh, I never said they did. What I meant was that the Qur'an refers to Zoroastrians as "fire worshipers".

Quote:
Also true Muslims are pro-Israel and Pro-Jewish, worship Jesus as the messiah, believe in the virgin Mary, and understand that Jesus is not the messiah of the Jews.


Isn't this contradictory? But I do understand Islam's position on Jesus, that is they believe him to have been the prophesied Messiah of the Jews but not actually G-d as a man, nor do they believe in the trinity concept.

Quote:
We have a different messiah. Joshua (Jesus) is the messiah to non-jews, and to Messiahnic Jews. (in truth they are ethnic Jews, that follow the original Christianity which was Judaism that believed in Joshua as the messiah. But today they are smack dab in the middle, but are considered by most as Chrisitian.). Our messiah first off can be of any race (most people think he will be black. That is a very long story. I will get into that later on), of any age, and in truth has been to earth before. So when the Christians say he will come a second time they are right. The messiah's soul was created before all other human souls, and saw what is happening and what is to happen before Hashem created Adam. If I got that right. But he was not Joshua.


You have a very interesting view. I had no idea that there was supposed to be a Messiah specifically for goyim, where in Torah can I read about this?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:51 pm


Jews came in contact with Zoroastrians many times sicne they were the main religion in Central Asia for a vey long time. And as I said before, we influenced them a lot. Also for a religion to be considered a religion of the book it must have these qualities as follows.

They practice Tawhid (monotheism).
They recognize life after death, judgment, Heaven, and the existence of angels.
They usually recognize Satan and Hell, and they have many similar eschatological beliefs.
They share some of the same prophets, such as Moses.
They have similar beliefs regarding the creation, specifically, in the lives of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

Many early Islamic scholars, such as Malik ibn Anas, agreed that Zoroastrians should also be included. Zoroastrianism is believed by scholars and historians to have been founded between 1000 BCE and 600 BCE making it older than Christianity and Islam. It shares similar eschatological views with Christianity and Islam, and recognizes life after death, Satan (as Angra Mainyu), Heaven, and Hell. There is no official Zoroastrian viewpoint regarding Adam and Eve or Moses. Most Shi'a Muslims accept Zoroastrians as People of the Book.

Generally speaking, only pre-Islamic religions are considered to be the religions of the Book. This is because Muhammad is viewed in Islam as the seal of the prophets, the final prophet that God will ever send to humanity for all time. This means that post-Islamic faiths are not considered religions of the Book in the classical sense, even if they are revealed, scriptural, monotheistic, and/or Abrahamic.


They are told to find them and to convert them. But this is after the first Jihad. The first one was Moes campaign. After that the second Jihad will be in 2012.


The topic of Jesus in truth is of debate in Islam. SOme see him as a messiah, some do not. You have to really look deep into it.


The torah says that Hashem will reveal it's words to the various nations of the world in different mediums by what fits the culture of the nation it is being revealed to, and that each nation has it's own guardian angel and it's own leader and the leader of the leader (messiah). This is very estrotic hidden torah. Even though soem of this is talked about in other parts of the torah.

Zumbi2


Zorable

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:40 pm


A high school in Pennsylvania:

A boy came up to me because he had never seen anyone with a Jewish star around hanging on their neck and asked me, "Where are your horns and tail?"
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