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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:23 pm
CCubed Right there, St. Paul says blatantly that those men and women who engaged in indecent acts with one another were filled with EVIL. You cannot deny that scripture. Well, thank God we're finally done with Sodom and Gamorrah. And I don't deny that scripture. However, it still doesn't condemn all homosexual acts. In Romans, "indecent acts," while undoubtably homosexual in nature, are riddled with lust and promuscuity. Lust and promiscuity are bad, regardless of sexuality or gender. I think we can all agree on that. And lust and promiscuity =/= loving monogamous relationship.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:30 pm
CCubed Right there, St. Paul says blatantly that those men and women who engaged in indecent acts with one another were filled with EVIL. You cannot deny that scripture. I don't try to. Rather, I shall point out that nowhere in the handy list of sins does God list homosexuality. Rather, he lists things such as: [29] They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. Quote: P.S. I've attached the latin version since you think the greek is flawed, fyi, the latin version was the first translation. No, it wasn't. The Greek was the original. Jesus spoke Greek, not Latin. In addition, the Roman Vulgate was riddled with errors when it was first created and is worthless for these purposes. Quote: Want a translation even? i can do that too but know that I've already done the translation and it comes out to be the english i've listed up top. Also, since i expect you to make your own translation, know that words like the and of are included in the ending of the words. For example, Victoriae means either The victory or of the victory, but if you just look up the word it's victory. I don't really want a translation of the Vulgate, as I am not Catholic and do not believe it has any purpose besides historical novelty.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:41 pm
Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Jesus spoke Greek, not Latin. Actually, Jesus likely spoke Aramaic. Not that that's really here nor there, but still.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 4:10 pm
SinfulGuillotine Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Jesus spoke Greek, not Latin. Actually, Jesus likely spoke Aramaic. Not that that's really here nor there, but still. Thank you. ^-^
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:52 pm
SinfulGuillotine Seraph68 SinfulGuillotine You sin by virtue of being human. It is not a question of whether of not humans sin, but whether we accept that sin or repent from it. I realise that, but dear linkisi seems to think that if you sin, you aren't Christian. Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. You'll continue to sin your entire life, Christian or otherwise. Yes, there's a difference between a repentent sinner and an unrepentent sinner, but repentent sinners still sin. What I mean is if you continue doing the same sin over again its basically like saying "Oh yeah I'm a Christian and God will let me into Heaven and I can go on doing the same thing I have been doing He will just continue to forgive while I do this same sin over and over and over and over agian." Yes people still sin but if they know they are sinning and choose to do it then its as if you never repented to God.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 5:59 pm
linkisi SinfulGuillotine Seraph68 SinfulGuillotine You sin by virtue of being human. It is not a question of whether of not humans sin, but whether we accept that sin or repent from it. I realise that, but dear linkisi seems to think that if you sin, you aren't Christian. Quote: If you are a Christian and was saved by Gods grace and continue in sin you are the same as before and letting your old life be reborn into you and opens your heart back into the sins of the world. You'll continue to sin your entire life, Christian or otherwise. Yes, there's a difference between a repentent sinner and an unrepentent sinner, but repentent sinners still sin. What I mean is if you continue doing the same sin over again its basically like saying "Oh yeah I'm a Christian and God will let me into Heaven and I can go on doing the same thing I have been doing He will just continue to forgive while I do this same sin over and over and over and over agian." Yes people still sin but if they know they are sinning and choose to do it then its as if you never repented to God. Christians are more likely to know they are sinning and just as likely to choose to do it anyways as any other people. We are all sinners, Christian or not. This is beside the point, as homosexuality is not a sin. Let's not go off on a tangent.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:31 pm
Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe And by the way, when I ask a question, I want an answer. Not more questions to complicate things... And leave your bias out of it. Oh, shut up. Your question was based on an incorrect premise. Sorry, let me simplify that. Your question was stupid. The point you are trying to get across is incorrect, and I was demonstrating why. Stop holding your ignorance as a shield and either confront these topics like a rational, intelligent human or bugger off. For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:36 pm
Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori CCubed Right there, St. Paul says blatantly that those men and women who engaged in indecent acts with one another were filled with EVIL. You cannot deny that scripture. I don't try to. Rather, I shall point out that nowhere in the handy list of sins does God list homosexuality. Rather, he lists things such as: [29] They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. Quote: P.S. I've attached the latin version since you think the greek is flawed, fyi, the latin version was the first translation. No, it wasn't. The Greek was the original. Jesus spoke Greek, not Latin. In addition, the Roman Vulgate was riddled with errors when it was first created and is worthless for these purposes. Quote: Want a translation even? i can do that too but know that I've already done the translation and it comes out to be the english i've listed up top. Also, since i expect you to make your own translation, know that words like the and of are included in the ending of the words. For example, Victoriae means either The victory or of the victory, but if you just look up the word it's victory. I don't really want a translation of the Vulgate, as I am not Catholic and do not believe it has any purpose besides historical novelty. One, I said it was the first translation, which is true. Two, Jesus spoke Aramaic, but we've already established that. Three, You cannot take parts of scripture and ignore the rest of it. It says that they engaged in indecent acts with each other, men and men and women and women. They were then filled with evil. Romans 1: 26 - 32: [26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, [27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. [28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. [29] They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men." They are talking about homosexual acts, it then says "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. There were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil..." Because they committed homosexual acts they were filled with evil. That verse CANNOT be anymore clearer.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:54 pm
CCubed One, I said it was the first translation, which is true. It was the first Latin translation. The Greek Septuagint came several hundred years before the Vulgate. Quote: "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men." They are talking about homosexual acts, it then says "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. There were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil..." Because they committed homosexual acts they were filled with evil. That verse CANNOT be anymore clearer. Again, lust and promiscuity. Which, as I said in my post that you so eloquently ignored, are unquestionably bad, homosexual or otherwise.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:08 pm
The Noble Protoman.exe For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this. You have repeatedly ignored any response to the faults in the points you've made. I am not the one suffering from bias.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:25 pm
CCubed One, I said it was the first translation, which is true. Ah, but I don't actually like translations, period, when the original is available. Also, the Septuagint was translated first. Quote: Two, Jesus spoke Aramaic, but we've already established that. Three, You cannot take parts of scripture and ignore the rest of it. It says that they engaged in indecent acts with each other, men and men and women and women. They were then filled with evil. They were filled with evil because they gave up God. You can't just ignore scripture, you know. neutral Quote: "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men." They are talking about homosexual acts, it then says "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. There were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil..." Because they committed homosexual acts they were filled with evil. That verse CANNOT be anymore clearer. How exactly can you quote a passage that many times without reading "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God"? The cause of God giving them up was obviously idolatry or simple ignoring of Him. Idolatry is the more obvious explanation, given the reference to a "Creature". Idolatry =/= gay sex. Please, read what you write.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:26 pm
The Noble Protoman.exe Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe And by the way, when I ask a question, I want an answer. Not more questions to complicate things... And leave your bias out of it. Oh, shut up. Your question was based on an incorrect premise. Sorry, let me simplify that. Your question was stupid. The point you are trying to get across is incorrect, and I was demonstrating why. Stop holding your ignorance as a shield and either confront these topics like a rational, intelligent human or bugger off. For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this. "Yeah! Only MY bias is allowed in THIS thread!"
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:15 pm
SinfulGuillotine CCubed One, I said it was the first translation, which is true. It was the first Latin translation. The Greek Septuagint came several hundred years before the Vulgate. Quote: "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men." They are talking about homosexual acts, it then says "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. There were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil..." Because they committed homosexual acts they were filled with evil. That verse CANNOT be anymore clearer. Again, lust and promiscuity. Which, as I said in my post that you so eloquently ignored, are unquestionably bad, homosexual or otherwise. You, on the other hand, are plainly ignoring the "women with women and men with men" and "shameless acts" phrases. It's a clear statement. Just because there are more verses afterwards that elaborate on it and add to it doesn't take anything away from the point in the eariler verses. Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this. You have repeatedly ignored any response to the faults in the points you've made. I am not the one suffering from bias. No he hasn't. You haven't pointed out a single problem in his points. All you've done is answer questions with questions because you're either too stupid or too afraid to back up what you say with logic and fact. Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe And by the way, when I ask a question, I want an answer. Not more questions to complicate things... And leave your bias out of it. Oh, shut up. Your question was based on an incorrect premise. Sorry, let me simplify that. Your question was stupid. The point you are trying to get across is incorrect, and I was demonstrating why. Stop holding your ignorance as a shield and either confront these topics like a rational, intelligent human or bugger off. His questions were, and still are, valid. You have never refuted what he said, and you have never given any proof against it. All you have done is say "that's stupid" or "Your question is stupid" I had no idea it was possible to carry on a discussion without making a single valid point. Cyberpunk Hero CCubed Right there, St. Paul says blatantly that those men and women who engaged in indecent acts with one another were filled with EVIL. You cannot deny that scripture. Sure can't disagree with that. Of course, I can disagree with your definition of "indecent acts". These men and women "gave up their natural relations". It does not describe what "natural relations" are. Men "committed shameless acts with men", but it does not describe what the shameless acts are. Maybe Luke can apologize to you for not getting pornographic. neutral Indecent acts is pretty straightforward, especially when you're considering it was written by Luke, not Paul as people think. THEY HAD HOMOSEXUAL SEX. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori And your point is? I have no issue with people having their own opinions. I do, however, have an issue with people telling others they are going to hell for something they cannot change. I do have an issue with people making opinions into restrictive laws. You sure seem to. You've done little more than insult anyone that disagrees with you. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Because we are ruled by faith, not the law, and I have faith that God loves me and supports me the way he made me. It's a given fact that God loves and supports all of us, no matter what sin we commit. But just because God loves all of us doesn't mean we aren't sinning. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori neutral Wow, I didn't know that. Congrats, you've opened my eyes to how obviously sinful my lifestyle of sitting at home being teh ghey truly was. If you really enjoy being so rude, take it to the GD and leave people who enjoy intelligent discussion out of it. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori There is no concrete biblical proof we should use computers. There is no concrete biblical proof that basic psychology works. Concrete biblical proof is not needed to encourage something; it is needed in order to condemn something. And I have never seen concrete biblical proof that homosexuality is sinful. So I'm to assume you simply skimmed over that little passage in Acts, then? Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori It means we have an inborn instinct to stick to our preferred gender(s)? Many homosexual people think heterosexual relationship are sick. Does that make it true? And where do you get that statistic from? Not to mention that an actual study has gotten a statistic that more than 50% of people who claim to have had a homosexual attraction also have had a heterosexual attraction. Many think it's sick? No. Some? Maybe. Few? Probably. Also, just because someone practicing a wrong lifestyle thinks it's right doesn't mean it's right. Saying that is like saying that cannibalism isn't wrong because cannibals think other people are stupid, or incest isn't wrong because people in incestual relationships don't think it's wrong. Bad reasoning and bad logic is involved, and it doesn't prove any point beside that you don't have any working points to back up your argument. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori Actually the APA, the leading psychological association in America (the world, even?) has realized that it is neither harmful nor changeable. To some degree, everyone has a homosexual tendency. It's like sin; our sinful nature can't be changed; we'll always have a tendency to sin, but that doesn't mean we have to act on the impulse just because it's there. Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori The Jews are at fault for the Holocaust! We wouldn't hate them if they didn't deserve it! My heart bleeds for you. Again, hateful, sarcastic crap like this has no place in an intelligent discussion.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:38 pm
Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this. You have repeatedly ignored any response to the faults in the points you've made. I am not the one suffering from bias. Give up. Where in my questions did I present ANY sort of bias. I asked a question, so how about you answer them in a non-sarcastic statement? At least be considerate that 1. I am not mocking you in any way. Where did I call you "stupid" or "idiotic" or any other terms? You seriously need to stop. 2. Wherein did you NOT post bias? You repeatedly asked me questions to answer my questions. 3. The "flaws" you found in my argument? Flaws... flaws... I do say, you're the one presenting ME with flaws. You see, you did not even point out the flaws, you did not even show me any flaws, no. If I flawed my argument, you must have flawed yours as well. Thus bringing me back to my question.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:39 pm
Kuroi Kokoro no Mendori The Noble Protoman.exe Cyberpunk Hero The Noble Protoman.exe And by the way, when I ask a question, I want an answer. Not more questions to complicate things... And leave your bias out of it. Oh, shut up. Your question was based on an incorrect premise. Sorry, let me simplify that. Your question was stupid. The point you are trying to get across is incorrect, and I was demonstrating why. Stop holding your ignorance as a shield and either confront these topics like a rational, intelligent human or bugger off. For the last time, leave your bias OUT of this. "Yeah! Only MY bias is allowed in THIS thread!" Cut out the sarcasm. We're trying to have a serious conversation.
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