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 Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:02 pm
Yi Min Sypherengel Now everyone, I don't mean to bring up an old subject, but I was reading through the first page for the first time and noticed that something that I was very angered by was posted there. Yi Min Wasn't there a woman who just recently, within the last year, shot herself in the stomach? I wonder how her case turned out. *goes to research it.* Edit: Found it. After finding a ton of pro-life and religious sites bashing this poor woman.. I found something as unbiased as I could... http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stories/wvec_local_050806_skinner_charges_update.1ff12473.html Am I the only one here who thinks that this woman is outright evil for doing such a thing? She shot herself in the stomach, intentionally murdering a CHILD, not an ungrown fetus. All I've believed in, the years of my being pro-choice was that women (as well as their partners) had a choice, whether to remove a growing thing from themselves, because they are just not the right person (whether because of themselves or the time in their life) to raise a child. I never thought it right that they were to MURDER a child. This woman SHOT a child the day it was to be born. Had it been born, what would the different have been (besides that it was out of her), than her approaching it in the hospital and shooting it? I remember seeing on the NEWS that she was extremely happy about having the baby. And, that between either a fight between her and her boyfriend or her boyfriend threatening to leave her.. something about him presuring her into giving the baby away or not wanting it or anything to do with her if she had it.. made her lose it. And she was extremely depressed to a point that she should have been medicated. However, I do not know the whole story. Yes, she really wasn't in her right mind when she did it. I think her boyfriend had left her or something and she was freaked out about having another baby by herself.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:11 pm
PersephoneMediocris Yi Min Sypherengel Now everyone, I don't mean to bring up an old subject, but I was reading through the first page for the first time and noticed that something that I was very angered by was posted there. Yi Min Wasn't there a woman who just recently, within the last year, shot herself in the stomach? I wonder how her case turned out. *goes to research it.* Edit: Found it. After finding a ton of pro-life and religious sites bashing this poor woman.. I found something as unbiased as I could... http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stories/wvec_local_050806_skinner_charges_update.1ff12473.html Am I the only one here who thinks that this woman is outright evil for doing such a thing? She shot herself in the stomach, intentionally murdering a CHILD, not an ungrown fetus. All I've believed in, the years of my being pro-choice was that women (as well as their partners) had a choice, whether to remove a growing thing from themselves, because they are just not the right person (whether because of themselves or the time in their life) to raise a child. I never thought it right that they were to MURDER a child. This woman SHOT a child the day it was to be born. Had it been born, what would the different have been (besides that it was out of her), than her approaching it in the hospital and shooting it? I remember seeing on the NEWS that she was extremely happy about having the baby. And, that between either a fight between her and her boyfriend or her boyfriend threatening to leave her.. something about him presuring her into giving the baby away or not wanting it or anything to do with her if she had it.. made her lose it. And she was extremely depressed to a point that she should have been medicated. However, I do not know the whole story. Yes, she really wasn't in her right mind when she did it. I think her boyfriend had left her or something and she was freaked out about having another baby by herself. That makes sense, but still - there is really no valid excuse for doing such a thing.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:15 pm
Quote: A charge of inducing an abortion was dismissed Monday in the case of a woman who shot herself in the stomach on the morning her baby was to have been born. - News Article And, the discussion of cute babies...Babies disgist me, but when your child is so close to being 'complete' that it is due, then to me, it is murder. Had some psychopath murdered this woman's child instead (ex. stabbed her in the stomach), I'm sure everyone would be speaking of 'such a horrible tragedy' and 'that poor woman, her child was murdered' solely because she wasn't the cause of it. Well, her child was murdered. Her clump of cells was not aborted. Her fully grown baby was shot.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:09 pm
Zacius  Just because America is having a little bit of a problem with church and state. I have a few out of taste ideas that just have to go out soon That cracks me up. heart
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:46 am
Sypherengel Quote: A charge of inducing an abortion was dismissed Monday in the case of a woman who shot herself in the stomach on the morning her baby was to have been born. - News Article And, the discussion of cute babies...Babies disgist me, but when your child is so close to being 'complete' that it is due, then to me, it is murder. Had some psychopath murdered this woman's child instead (ex. stabbed her in the stomach), I'm sure everyone would be speaking of 'such a horrible tragedy' and 'that poor woman, her child was murdered' solely because she wasn't the cause of it. Well, her child was murdered. Her clump of cells was not aborted. Her fully grown baby was shot. I can understand why you feel so angered by this, but really - you're making the same mistakes we yell at anti's for doing. You can't "feel" an act is murder - it actually has to fit the definition. I sympathize with you, but really, can't we get our point across in a non-hypocritical way?
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:30 am
Sypherengel Now everyone, I don't mean to bring up an old subject, but I was reading through the first page for the first time and noticed that something that I was very angered by was posted there. Yi Min Wasn't there a woman who just recently, within the last year, shot herself in the stomach? I wonder how her case turned out. *goes to research it.* Edit: Found it. After finding a ton of pro-life and religious sites bashing this poor woman.. I found something as unbiased as I could... http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stories/wvec_local_050806_skinner_charges_update.1ff12473.html Am I the only one here who thinks that this woman is outright evil for doing such a thing? She shot herself in the stomach, intentionally murdering a CHILD, not an ungrown fetus. All I've believed in, the years of my being pro-choice was that women (as well as their partners) had a choice, whether to remove a growing thing from themselves, because they are just not the right person (whether because of themselves or the time in their life) to raise a child. I never thought it right that they were to MURDER a child. This woman SHOT a child the day it was to be born. Had it been born, what would the different have been (besides that it was out of her), than her approaching it in the hospital and shooting it?
Me personally, I feel nothing. If I was forced to remain pregnant, and everything I tried to induce a miscarriage failed, I would probably shoot myself in the stomach too.
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:35 am
Sypherengel And, the discussion of cute babies...Babies disgist me, but when your child is so close to being 'complete' that it is due, then to me, it is murder. Had some psychopath murdered this woman's child instead (ex. stabbed her in the stomach), I'm sure everyone would be speaking of 'such a horrible tragedy' and 'that poor woman, her child was murdered' solely because she wasn't the cause of it. Well, her child was murdered. Her clump of cells was not aborted. Her fully grown baby was shot.
Her 'child' was not murdered unless it was born. If it was still inside her, it was not born. Get over it. Seriously. You don't have to like what she did, but PLEASE stop trying to call it 'murder' simply because you feel it is. It really angers me how you can throw those words around so casually.
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:06 pm
Casually? Really now, let's be serious.
And the constant reference to Pro-Lifers as the "antis". Can we please move out of the childhood stage?
You're right, I didn't like this. And yes, I will use emotionally charged words to describe how I feel about the situation.
I am extremely offended that I have "stopped to the level of the antis" just by speaking what I believe, and not being the mindless drone that most of us in this guild seem to have become.
Yes, I am Pro-Choice, VERY Pro-Choice. At the point I am in life, if I had gotten pregnant, I would abort the child. Yet, just because I believe that people have a choice, doesn't mean I believe that if at the very last minute, I woman decided she wasn't happy with a child, she can shoot it, and be done it. That, I will not agree with.
And as for my 'getting over it', sure - I'm positive I'll get over this. Why? Because I am the kind of person who doesn't really involve themselves in other people's business. What angers me, is how the majority of us are going "Oh my God! Those terrible Pro-Lifers, bashing that poor woman for shooting herself to kill her child...Oh no...I hate them..They are such losers...They suck...Yeah, they suck...Go Pro-Choicers!"
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:42 pm
My opinion is divided. Yes, the woman has been through enough, but her thought process seems a little addled. I've never been shot, or given birth to a baby, but I'm infering that they both hurt. A lot. And she was that far into the pregnancy. I feel for her; she must have felt very mixed up.
I don't think jail time is what she needs. I hope she got some sort of counceling.
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:46 pm
Dude, I'm really glad that someone is finally starting to say what I've been too afraid to. Yeah, the consciousness comes very late in the fetal developmental stage. Still, it's there before the kid's born. And I've always thought that we as pro-choicers valued consciousness as the final requirement for a human being. MipsyKitten You're using very emotionally charged words to describe something you disagree with. Don't stoop to the level of the antis. Yes, it was bad, but we don't know what was going through her head. It's not yours, or anyone else's place to judge unless you have all the facts, which you never will. Try saying that about a woman who just killed a five-week-old baby. We don't know what was going through her head? Fine, but she's still a murderer. This particular situation might not perfectly fit the technical definition, but goddamn! The day it was to be born, dude. That's a fully-formed human child that is in fact conscious, regardless of its location. No, it didn't have the right to live off of its mother, but she had five months or so AT LEAST to come up with a solution. Yeah, I feel sorry for her, but she did make a mistake. I won't up and say she's a horrible person, because no, I wasn't the one in this situation. But then, lots of people get off on pleas of temporary insanity. What she did was wrong, and I think we as choicers need to admit that. It was irresponsible and wrong. Feel sympathy for the woman, but don't try to justify what she did. Quote: Me personally, I feel nothing. If I was forced to remain pregnant, and everything I tried to induce a miscarriage failed, I would probably shoot myself in the stomach too. But you'd do it before the day it was to be born, ne? Syhereangel Yet, just because I believe that people have a choice, doesn't mean I believe that if at the very last minute, I woman decided she wasn't happy with a child, she can shoot it, and be done it. That, I will not agree with. And this is what I've come to believe. Yes, women have the right to control what goes on in their bodies. However, they also have the responsibility to abort the fetus before it turns into a conscious child. Anybody remember my Great Abortion Compromise? No? Oh, that's right, you forgot all about it because it's a compromise--and so many of you are so damn intent on getting every little thing you want out of a situation that you refuse to listen to reason.
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:52 pm
Sypherengel And the constant reference to Pro-Lifers as the "antis". Can we please move out of the childhood stage? Aye.
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:55 pm
This is kinda getting off the topic again- we're here to be amused, entertained, and to laugh at rearrangements and "corrections."
Let's get back to it, especially the "laughing" part. You guys can set up a little thread outside to talk about it though! 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:51 am
Sypherengel And the constant reference to Pro-Lifers as the "antis". Can we please move out of the childhood stage? Sypherengel I am extremely offended that I have "stopped to the level of the antis" just by speaking what I believe, and not being the mindless drone that most of us in this guild seem to have become. Sypherengel And as for my 'getting over it', sure - I'm positive I'll get over this. Why? Because I am the kind of person who doesn't really involve themselves in other people's business. What angers me, is how the majority of us are going "Oh my God! Those terrible Pro-Lifers, bashing that poor woman for shooting herself to kill her child...Oh no...I hate them..They are such losers...They suck...Yeah, they suck...Go Pro-Choicers!" Lelas Try saying that about a woman who just killed a five-week-old baby. We don't know what was going through her head? Fine, but she's still a murderer. This particular situation might not perfectly fit the technical definition, but goddamn! The day it was to be born, dude. That's a fully-formed human child that is in fact conscious, regardless of its location. No, it didn't have the right to live off of its mother, but she had five months or so AT LEAST to come up with a solution. Lelas But you'd do it before the day it was to be born, ne?
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:36 am
Sypherengel And the constant reference to Pro-Lifers as the "antis". Can we please move out of the childhood stage? It's shorthand for anti-Choice. Sypherengel I am extremely offended that I have "stopped to the level of the antis" just by speaking what I believe Wrong. You "stooped to the level of the antis" by using medically FALSE and emotionally charged words to get a point across. Sypherengel and not being the mindless drone that most of us in this guild seem to have become. Please see above where you asked us to move out of the childhood stage. Sypherengel Yet, just because I believe that people have a choice, doesn't mean I believe that if at the very last minute, I woman decided she wasn't happy with a child, she can shoot it, and be done it. That, I will not agree with. That's perfectly fine. All we are asking is that you not call it "murder" when it isn't and that you not call the fetus a "child" when it isn't. Until the moment of birth, the fetus is a FETUS and does not have elgal personhood. You may think it SHOULD be murder, but that's not the same thing as it actually being murder. This wasn't an attack on your beliefs or your opinion. This was an attack on the language you used. You are being compared to the antis because you are using language that is inappropriate just because it is more convenient for you to get your point across. Sypherengel What angers me, is how the majority of us are going "Oh my God! Those terrible Pro-Lifers, bashing that poor woman for shooting herself to kill her child...Oh no...I hate them..They are such losers...They suck...Yeah, they suck...Go Pro-Choicers!" Wrong. Most of us are going "Oh my God! That poor woman that she was driven to the point of shooting herself in the stomach! We need to get her some psychiatric help, ASAP!" Honestly, how does it help ANYONE (the dead fetus OR the woman OR anyone else) to just condemn her, call her evil, and make the situation worse for all parties involved? Lelas Try saying that about a woman who just killed a five-week-old baby. We don't know what was going through her head? Fine, but she's still a murderer. Yes, she is. Because a five-week-old baby is a PERSON. A pre-born fetus, however, is not. Therefore, the woman we are talking about is NOT a murderer. Lelas This particular situation might not perfectly fit the technical definition, but goddamn! The day it was to be born, dude. That's a fully-formed human child that is in fact conscious, regardless of its location. No, it didn't have the right to live off of its mother, but she had five months or so AT LEAST to come up with a solution. I don't agree with what she did either. But that doesn't mean that we can call it murder when it clearly wasn't. Just because you care, just because this case appeals to your emotions, does NOT mean that you can just pretend that legal definitions don't exist. Lelas However, they also have the responsibility to abort the fetus before it turns into a conscious child. You cannot abort a child, conscious or otherwise. You can only abort fetuses, embryos, and such. Lelas No? Oh, that's right, you forgot all about it because it's a compromise--and so many of you are so damn intent on getting every little thing you want out of a situation that you refuse to listen to reason. Hey, thanks for making assumptions!
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:06 am
Kukushka You cannot abort a child, conscious or otherwise. You can only abort fetuses, embryos, and such. Precisely, and the reason explaining why I feel so strongly on this is because, whether most here believe that such a mature baby is a fetus or a child, I do believe it is a child, which is why I'm sure the law allowing for a legal abortion ends after the second trimester. Kukushka That's perfectly fine. All we are asking is that you not call it "murder" when it isn't and that you not call the fetus a "child" when it isn't. Until the moment of birth, the fetus is a FETUS and does not have elgal personhood. You may think it SHOULD be murder, but that's not the same thing as it actually being murder. This wasn't an attack on your beliefs or your opinion. This was an attack on the language you used. You are being compared to the antis because you are using language that is inappropriate just because it is more convenient for you to get your point across. This is something I can deal with. My choice of words? Strong, sure, and because we all (for the most part >.>) harbor different opinions, my choice of words may be considered wrong by others. However, that is not why I feel so angered by this at the moment. Like I stated earlier, this situation bothers me. I don't think it sets a good example, and if others start doing such things, I will only feel that it is due to people like some here, supporting this woman's decision simply because "we don't know what she was thinking" or because "she had a choice". I am really more bothered by personal attacks to my need to "grow up" and "get over it". When having an intelligent conversation about a situation like this, you'd figure that it's remain intelligent and not stoop to a level where you require personal attacks to get the point across. (Mind you, I am well aware that depending on your maturity, when reading this, you may also feel this is a personal attack xd But, I assure you, it isn't really directed to anyone here.)
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