Welcome to Gaia! ::

OMG HE POSTS BEFORE 9! O:!



Yeah, XE I just didn't want to you know make it sort of "less" like daydream is considered. xD



Again I quote:



:E I consider them disproved.



That's what I've been saying. Gawd. >X!



xD Lolz.



You make it sound like I didn't know that already. :E I only established it. I already knew what was going on, but for the sake of making sure we aren't starting to make what could be wrong, correct, I made sure that we all have a clear definition that all of this is theortical.



XD WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?! Friends online are more important than Friends in real life. Gosh! I thought everyone knew that. lol.

Until you remember that :: shurg:: I have nothing to go on, but that the hindu's started it. 3nodding Like I said, I wasn't sure if they started it or not. :E

you cant expect to be rude and not get rudeness back in return. so you got stuff up in your face back, since that is how you wanted to handle things.

now that the guild captain has talked toyou about it, I am sure you are aware now that rudeness will not be tolerated, so you can now consider yourself informed.

I sunk to your level to just throw back in your face what you were doing, so you would understand it. didnt like it did you? well, we dont either. Your first post was very offensive, coming off as you have ended the entire discussion with an essay you wrote.

again, your first know it all post was condesending, so you cant complain about us following suite.

no, it isnt genetic.. it is just, if you havent trained your lungs to take in a lot of air and hold it long, then certain drugs like salvia may not work the first time or whatnot. . never bothered with it again. .

again, nothing is truely a fact, we all know this now, so can just get that out their.

establish 1) we are gong to assume that the earth is real

I wasnt scared of him becuase we got to know eachother and would talk for hours on the phone every day before I even went over their. . so, for the most part I trusted him. .

I mentioned the stuff that I have done and seen becuase this is a guild about psychic stuff, so is it really bragging to mention what I have done or seen about a topic that can only be even assumed to be real by psychic means.

about establish 2. . yes, I do beleive I have some abilities, as well as many other poeple beleiving I do(which is part of the reason I do beleive is that others back up that what I said would happen did or whatnot). . I have never aquired a rating thread or anything, becuase I dont care about such egotistical bs. . if you dont want to beleive I do, that is your deal. .

and in the ED, yes, almost everyone would be torn to shreads for no real reason. .. just for some of them to show their hightened logic skills to boost their ego. .

if you are trying to say that otherkin dont exist, and the only way to really get any info on that is to know about the astral, then that is like saying you know about the astral. .

and no, if Dorian comes here, he would just be meeting me, since I dont think he knows anyone in Massachussetts. . if he did, then he could meet them too. . if he even comes to see me *doubts it*. . it is very pricy, so he wil probalby just go see his other freinds that are a bit closer to him. . and, dont worry, if he comes to see me I will get some sexy guys and make sure he gets drugged and raped. .j/k. . unless he wanted it. . hehe. .knowing him, he might. .

and yes, I do know that going to go see someone you meet online can be dangerous. . but, I had my cellphone, I had peopel who knew where I was going, I had cab numbers and stuff programed into my phone for the stuff that is in the area where I was going in washingtion. . so, I had backup plans, and my mom was going to call the cops if I didnt call her daily. .I know it was risky, but, I had to know if he was for real. . in some ways he was(energetically O.O), in some ways he wasnt(personality wise in some ways *giggle*)

and, from what I have heard of the veil, yes, heard from other people, I dont know much about the veil myself outside of what I have seen of it and heard of it. . it is like a thing around this earth, and we are in it right now. . it basically makes it so that the astral is more separate from the physical, although the physical cannot exist without some interaction with the astral, since the astral is the structure of it all, and what is matter without energy. . we exist on the astral, and interact with our body supposedly becuae we are connected to it by a thread, which I beleive in since well, I leave my body, and am able to come back to it so I must be connected . . now, of what I have seen of the veil is well, parts of it that hold it up. . and, then astral projecting, I have visited other places where the people see me even though I am astral so then their would must not have a veil . . lol . . so, my beleif of the veil is from other people, and from expereinces. . again, not saying that everything I know is correct, but, this is what I beleive of it from what I have seen and expereinced and heard from people I trust . .

about establish 7), supposedly if things go the way they may, yes, physical will mesh way more than it is now with the astral and the physical "laws" will change. . (although really the physical laws only exist becuase of the astral ones that suport the veil and the minds beleiving in them, but, we wont get into that since that is another HUGE mess)

theoretically, the veil is the energy structure that is surrounding this world. . kinda like a pillow, their is the fluff everywhere that keeps the astral from having too much effect on the physical. .so, the veil structure needs to fall for the astral and physical to mesh, as the veil is an astral like structure and not a real reality in itself exactly. . again, from what I have heard of it. . as I said, I only "know" of the mechanics of the veil from someone else, although I have personally astral projected and expereinced some of the features that lead me to beleive that this person isnt bsing. .

some of the logic would remain the same. . but, not all of it. . no where near all of it. . the astral as I have experienced it is influenced by the force of power one has, and thoughts. . so, you could litteraly bend reality to your thoughts. . you could fly if you wanted to and had enough energy to do so(and their wasnt a more powrful energy that was trying to stop you). . so, some laws from what I have heard and experienced would stand, some wouldnt. .some are simmilar but not exactly the same. . but again, no way to know how it will manifest in this world for sure untill/if it happens. .

and my argument still does hold. . what I am saying is that, you cannot apply the laws of one world to another. . you cannot apply the laws of the physical to the astral. . your argument doesnt hold becuase science doesnt admit that the astral exists. . so, the most you can say for an argument is that "science says that the astral doesnt exist, so otherkins dont exist". . that is assuming that science is even right, and this world is even real. . and, also, the laws of science were determined by other people, who you arent even sure are real, so, science could also be false. . but, again, for your argument, you could say that "assuming science is true, and this world is real, then the astral is fake, and otherkins cant exist"I wouldnt have a problem with that argument, but, saying that your argument holds just becuae we are assuming that the physical is real doesnt work for me. . becuase, as I said a millinon times, if the astral truely did fucntion exactly as science says the physical function, then it wouldnt be a separate world. . their would just be more physical stuff!. . so, for the astral to even be, then by nature not all of the physical laws can operate in it!

and, right now, my argument is based on the assumptioins that their is an astral, and my experiences and the expereinces of those that I trust are also true. . so, where do we get here?. . both of our arguments are based on assumptions that we cannot really prove. . . mine makes sense in the way that I am actually trying to find astral laws instead of saying that the physical laws apply to the astral. . since, they dont, or else their would just be more physical. . which is the thing that is annoying me the most. . if the physical laws of science worked on the astral, then the astral wouldnt be the astral but more physical. .

the other forms part. . you havent really disproved, Sin is just really bad at explaining things. . I am bad too, but, she is way worse. . she knows so much s**t she doesnt know how to dumb it down for the rest of us. . reading her posts can be like trying to do a open heart surgery with a pencil. . but we love her anyways. .<3. .

. . but, regardless, just becuase she didnt describe it that well doesnt mean that you have really disproved it. . it is a very difficult thing to grasp,and her adding in the part about her segments probably just made it worse. . so, not going near that topic. . XD. . way to confusing, and, honestly, just becuae we cant explain it doesnt mean that it could not infact be correct. .

********and yes, #11, assuming that the earth and science are real. . the existance of the astral, which cannot be explained by physical means, is only verifiable by personal experiences with it such as projection and visions.. . which are not supported by science (unless you wanted to get into quantum physics, which does support some things but that is a mess in itself and an incomplete science, but, then again, what science is complete)********

everything is possibly fake outside of the assumptions we are making. .

I have taken philosophy classes, read stuff by Hume, Descartes'. . I prefer the eastern philosophies to the modern personally though. .

and, your essay didnt disprove otherkin, it just disproved some people who call themselves otherkin becuase of reasons that my definition of otherkin doesnt support. . not really disproving otherkins, just people who call themselves it with no real backing or are more in a catagory of something else and are stretching the definition of otherkinism. . .

anyways, you should maybe consider some eastern philosophies. . they have some interesting things to offer. .
part of reality is how we feel, not just how we think. . so, to cast out all feelings as lower than the intellect is an unwise move I personally feel. . part of feelings has to do with intuitions and the such. .




the other establishments hold, although modified where I mentioned. . just, the way you are using establishment 11 doesnt quite work so well. . as I explained above, your argument based on science cannot be applied to supposed otherkin, since science doesnt beleive in the astral, and if science could be applied to the astral, then the astral wouldnt be astral but more physical. . so, "assuming the earth is real, assuming that science is true. . their is no astral, and their would be no otherkinism". . is acceptable as theory based on those assumptioins. . but the theory that "applying the physical rules to the astral, otherkins dont exist" doesnt work, becuase if you apply the physical rules to the astral, then the astral doesnt exist and is just physical. . which makes no sense and is pointless to even say as an argument to otherkinism. . ****becuase, if you are even *considering* the possibility of otherkins being real, you also have to accept that the physical rules cannot be used to explain it, as if they could then you would have no astral realm, and with no astral realm you would have no possibility of otherkinism . .***


using rules that automatically make what you are trying to prove right(or in this case, using rules that automatically make what you are trying to disprove incorrect) is like proving christianity with bible quotes. It leaves no room for the possibilty of what you are even trying to disprove to be true.

Science (and math) seem to be Fallacy Logic to me. As what is being used in DF's argument.

Math is a representation of concepts, the symbols represent quantities, and actions done to them.

When you get into advanced algebra, you basically stop using symbols of real numbers, and use symbols that don't even represent actualy numbers, just a number.

So it becomes a process in which you are doing unknown things of unknown size to unknown quanties. A waste of time it seems.

Resurrection, is that what you were typing? I didn't process it. xD What about it?



:/ Lame-o



Metaphor? I wasn't using a metaphor to describe the future. See first we are talking about the future and then you jump onto original form? What? No wonder you're confused. I don't jump randomly to different topics.

Multiverse is how I see the future.

Original form = Oxymoron. Please reread what I was saying about the original form.



"Find" other reason? You must be mistaking me for someone who cares enough to actually find every little reason an otherkin exist. Right now, as a fact, I've disproven otherkin for those reasons. Don't add s**t in there and put words in my mouth that I never stated, Mr. Straw Man Fallacy.

As it stands, for me, Otherkinism is disproven. if you have other reasons, then give them to me. Otherwise, I see that those listed are the only reasons for otherkinism. Because they are the only ones presented. And since they are disproved, otherkinism is disproved.

If you have more, please go ahead and state them.



Bullshit. You were rude first specifically to me. Shall I go back and show you?



Other way around, I talked to the guild captain about her rudeness.



And it makes me giggle.



Theortically, How would one do that? Go astral project and talk to an astral tree nymph? How?



Why is that?



So is the veil just going to disappear then?



I'm not repeating myself any more. You didn't get it the last four times and I am not in the mood to repeat myself again.



Notice, stated that only the "physical" was real. We haven't established about the astral plane yet.



Give me other reasons then.



I've honestly stated my opinion, and I was very frank. Which can be considered to be rude. But still, frank is frank, and it was more a generalization then being rude to you specificly.

Here's what you started.



Basically implying that I was stupid and that He was far more intelligent than I. You're first insult towards me with a condescending attitude.

My Reply to this post:



Laughing off the insult.

Next time you did it was when I asked this of Dorian.

abut the condesending. . your essay that your friend posted was condesending. . which was the first stone. .

to get astral information about if otherkins were real, you would simply have to project and go look at people's energy. . otherkins dont look or feel the same. . if you could find an honest person who was claiming to be otherkin and really was, they astrally look different, and you can often tell from their energy when they are just in their body and are not aware ofyou looking at them. .so arent faking it or affecting the astral with their mind to deceive you. .

I mention that part about the physical relies on the astral, as yes, another beleive, as we have already said that all of this is theoretical anyways. .but, theoretically, and even with science in some ways, energy = matter. . matter is supported with energy. . no energy, no matter. .

well, the veil, also supposedly, again. . theory. . is an energy structure. . so, when/if the structure is taken down, the energy will break down, the veil will start to dissapate, and more and more as it dissapates the astral will merge more with the phyiscal. .

again, you cast the first stone. . and, my reply to your question to dorian was becuase, as the guild captian aggrees with, this thread was made by me, and this is a public forum. . I have every right to say that.. you didnt say "Dorian, I am personally asking you to answer this question, and you only". . this is a public forum, so anyone can reply. . you took that as me saying I am superior, when I was just pointing out that I had explained a bit of what I have found out about the war. . . . since, again this is a public forum, which you dont undestand. . if you pmed hm that and I replied to it, then that would be rude. . but, you are in a public forum, anyone can reply to anything. . sharing information, that is the point of it. . and your getting upset over me replying is showing your elitist behavior. . you decided that I was inferior to you, and that you would only accept posts by Dorian. . pompus much?. . like you can control and decide who replies to your post, or that you can post something and say that someone else had no right to reply to it, when you are posting in a FORUM, NOT A PM.

I said "however pointless it is" becuase I know that no matter what I say, you are not listening to me. . I ddint say that as an insult, that is just how you interpreted it. .

Basically, to discuss magic we have to assume magic is real.
To do this we have to accept that not "everything" is a hallucination.
Meaning if enough people (and there seems to be) can see otherkin, then that means they are likely to be real.
To deny that, you basically have to deny magic is real period.
And you can't, because that would mean entering the discussion was redundant for you.

so I suppose we can say these things:

argument 1:
~assuming that the world is real, assuming that science is real(but not quantum physics), and assuming that science without quantum physics isnt amended ever, then the astral doesnt exist, and otherkins as well cannot exist, nor the soul or anything of that nature. .

comments on this:
this is a weak argument. . weak in the sense that science isnt a complete art, and quantum physics is a part of science, even though it is still debated. .
also, it is weak in that you are using a rule that already rules out the possibility of otherkinism being possible. . proving christianity with bible quotes. It is a pointless argument, since the framework of science (which is debatable) which you are using doesnt even allow for the possibility of otherkinism. .

argument 2:
~assuming the world is real, assuming we are not insane and personal experiences we have are real, experiences with the astral by ways of psychic perception is the only way we can prove that otherkins exist right now(since science could later prove that the astral and energy level is real, especially if we take quantum physics into the equation). so, to know for sure if otherkins are real, one must psychically investigate(or scientists need to get working more on quantum physics to back this up). Regardless, it is proven that the *possibility* of otherkins being real has been established.

comments:
again, going on a lot of assumptions here, but this argument stands and makes sense if the assumptions also hold. .
also, goes on the assumptioin that the astral is real.


both assumptions have "holes" in them,

both:
~assuming this world is real
~assuming we are real
~assuming we can figure things out through personal experience (the first argument gones on this as well, since science is judging from other peoples experiences and from your own that science is real)

additional assumptions of the first:
~science is real, but only the parts that dont support the astral (the rest, like quantum physics and energy = matter is fake). . taking an incomplete part of an incomplete feild of research.

additional assumptions of the second:
~the astral is real (which can in some ways be supported by the fact that science is incomplete, and the feild of quantum physics)
~It is POSSIBLE that otherkins are real. (actually allowing for the possibility of the thing that is being questioned to be real). . not a bad assumption when you are asking if otherkins are real.


but, as one can see, the 2d is a bit more reasonable. . as, it isnt proving that otherkinism is real, it is just proving that it is POSSIBLE that they are. . the first one only proves that otherkins are fake if you disregard the MANY flaws of science and act like a know it all.. If you use the bible to prove christianity. . if you ask a question pointlessly, becuase the rules you have set out of for the question already claim that it is wrong. this is not a very good argument!

now, to further argument 2, personally, I have done the psychic research, so I have proved to myself, that if the world is real, and the astral is real, and I am not crazy, then otherkins exist. .

we may not be able to prove to everyone that otherkins exist, but, it cannot be proven that they dont(with an argument that is even worthy of being considered). . we can atleast support that their is the possibility they are real. .

so, alas, I have shown that the 2d arguement is the least flawed. *

*note: we are still admitting that their are flaws and that it is also based on the previous assumptions we have set. .

so, where have we gotten, next to know where, but, we have atlast shown that we could possibly be right, and, your argument is more flawed so least likely to be right. . so, saying otherkinism has been shown to be incorrect, as an argument that has less flaws has been presented that proves that it is *possible* that they do exist.