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 Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:00 pm
Hmmm...if I remeber straight, the only appearce of "I Am." was in exoduce, and was spoken to moses. But, it was a jew who wrote the name, was it not? Its beleived that the Bible was written through an interpretation of what man saw and heard, not really what actualy happend. I actualy beilive it would be impossible to describe the voice, words, and appearnce of God.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:02 pm
divineseraph Penguin Spoon There is some disargeement on that actually. From what I learned from my biblical hebrew teacher, a born and raised Israelite and Hebrew Scholar, its actually an interesting confusion. The jews did not use the name of God or even hint at the name of God in anyway. Their number system is based on letters, so the number 15 would actually be YH, but to the Jews this is too close so instead of YH its something like GV I believe. Anyways, an interesting side effect is that to avoid saying the name of God, but yet using it in the text, they turned it into YEHOVAH by an interesting procedure. Basically they took the vowels from the Hebrew word for "lord" which is Adonai, and inserted them into the name of God YHVH. So it becomes Y(a)H(o)V(a)H essentially. (By the way, the letter V is actually supposed to be pronounced as W in the original Hebrew, but I use the V sound as it is pronounced now, due to the European affect on the renewal of the language) In Yahovah, the first A is too far away from the stress, which in Hebrew is unnacceptable so it is transfered into a "non-vowel" which is a short "eh" sound. So it becomes Y'hovah - or in English - Jehovah. Another interesting morphology with Hebrew is how Jesus' Hebrew name relates back to Gods name. Jesus name in Hebrew is Yehshua. If you take the name of God which is YHVH, and insert the SH consonent into the middle you get YHSHVH. Now, in this case the V is converted into the "oo" vowel so we have YHSHUH. (the V sound converts into the "oo" and "oh" vowel often) Then we add the vowels to the name getting YAH SHU AH. The first A is condensed to a "eh" again and we get the final name of Yehshuah. Why does this matter you ask? I dont remember. I cant remember why, but according to Hebrew mystiscm, the SH letter would be the perfect finish to Gods name for some reason. Again, not sure exactly how it all works. Still very interesting. but did he not tell abraham that He was called "YHWH", or "I am"? how could one simply change that name for effect? yes, it is a clever puzzle and play on words, but would not the proper noun still be YHWH, since that is how He said it, what He said? it's like saying "God isn't flahy enough, from now on i refer to him as Godithera!!!" I think it's a little more complicated then that. This is just spinning off the top of my head, no knowledge involved, but maybe the idea is something like this: God knows everything out there in Eternity, right? But when he isn't inside time, so he didn't know time and humanity and pain and all that good stuff until he became human and entired time, thus making himself perfect. The reason this wouldn't ruin his omnipotence is that, since he is in Eternity, he is outside of time; So as soon as he existed, he already had "sent" himself as Jesus "into time," because he would send himself into time as Jesus. You get my meaning? And so, when Jesus was born, he perfected God, who was already perfect.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:05 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle Hmmm...if I remeber straight, the only appearce of "I Am." was in exoduce, and was spoken to moses. But, it was a jew who wrote the name, was it not? Its beleived that the Bible was written through an interpretation of what man saw and heard, not really what actualy happend. I actualy beilive it would be impossible to describe the voice, words, and appearnce of God. yeah, it might have been moses... i get confused between the two... and david... it just seems to me like it should be abraham, since he was the first one to talk with God like that, so, i figured he'd probably be the one to get the basics... as in, a name. and it may be impossible, but would that change what was written as the name the first time? and if he said his name was "i am", then his name is "i am", not "i am with bits of the word 'lord' imbedded"
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:10 pm
divineseraph Pyrotechnic Oracle Hmmm...if I remeber straight, the only appearce of "I Am." was in exoduce, and was spoken to moses. But, it was a jew who wrote the name, was it not? Its beleived that the Bible was written through an interpretation of what man saw and heard, not really what actualy happend. I actualy beilive it would be impossible to describe the voice, words, and appearnce of God. yeah, it might have been moses... i get confused between the two... and david... it just seems to me like it should be abraham, since he was the first one to talk with God like that, so, i figured he'd probably be the one to get the basics... as in, a name. and it may be impossible, but would that change what was written as the name the first time? and if he said his name was "i am", then his name is "i am", not "i am with bits of the word 'lord' imbedded" The reason is that the Israelites were so afraid of blaspheming, by using the Lord's name in vain, that they simply didn't want to use it at all. So they created another name using some of the Lord's name in order to say his name without saying it. And I'm fairly certain that God just didn't tell Abraham his name; He was just God. Moses asked for a name.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:10 pm
I.Am divineseraph Penguin Spoon There is some disargeement on that actually. From what I learned from my biblical hebrew teacher, a born and raised Israelite and Hebrew Scholar, its actually an interesting confusion. The jews did not use the name of God or even hint at the name of God in anyway. Their number system is based on letters, so the number 15 would actually be YH, but to the Jews this is too close so instead of YH its something like GV I believe. Anyways, an interesting side effect is that to avoid saying the name of God, but yet using it in the text, they turned it into YEHOVAH by an interesting procedure. Basically they took the vowels from the Hebrew word for "lord" which is Adonai, and inserted them into the name of God YHVH. So it becomes Y(a)H(o)V(a)H essentially. (By the way, the letter V is actually supposed to be pronounced as W in the original Hebrew, but I use the V sound as it is pronounced now, due to the European affect on the renewal of the language) In Yahovah, the first A is too far away from the stress, which in Hebrew is unnacceptable so it is transfered into a "non-vowel" which is a short "eh" sound. So it becomes Y'hovah - or in English - Jehovah. Another interesting morphology with Hebrew is how Jesus' Hebrew name relates back to Gods name. Jesus name in Hebrew is Yehshua. If you take the name of God which is YHVH, and insert the SH consonent into the middle you get YHSHVH. Now, in this case the V is converted into the "oo" vowel so we have YHSHUH. (the V sound converts into the "oo" and "oh" vowel often) Then we add the vowels to the name getting YAH SHU AH. The first A is condensed to a "eh" again and we get the final name of Yehshuah. Why does this matter you ask? I dont remember. I cant remember why, but according to Hebrew mystiscm, the SH letter would be the perfect finish to Gods name for some reason. Again, not sure exactly how it all works. Still very interesting. but did he not tell abraham that He was called "YHWH", or "I am"? how could one simply change that name for effect? yes, it is a clever puzzle and play on words, but would not the proper noun still be YHWH, since that is how He said it, what He said? it's like saying "God isn't flahy enough, from now on i refer to him as Godithera!!!" I think it's a little more complicated then that. This is just spinning off the top of my head, no knowledge involved, but maybe the idea is something like this: God knows everything out there in Eternity, right? But when he isn't inside time, so he didn't know time and humanity and pain and all that good stuff until he became human and entired time, thus making himself perfect. The reason this wouldn't ruin his omnipotence is that, since he is in Eternity, he is outside of time; So as soon as he existed, he already had "sent" himself as Jesus "into time," because he would send himself into time as Jesus. You get my meaning? And so, when Jesus was born, he perfected God, who was already perfect. Hmmm. Nah, God was always perfect and knew exactly what pain was. It grieves Him to hear us curse his name, or blaspheme against him, remember. He took the form of Christ to fulfill the phrophecy of the second coming and tackign away the need of a blood sacrifce for every time we sin.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:12 pm
I.Am divineseraph Penguin Spoon There is some disargeement on that actually. From what I learned from my biblical hebrew teacher, a born and raised Israelite and Hebrew Scholar, its actually an interesting confusion. The jews did not use the name of God or even hint at the name of God in anyway. Their number system is based on letters, so the number 15 would actually be YH, but to the Jews this is too close so instead of YH its something like GV I believe. Anyways, an interesting side effect is that to avoid saying the name of God, but yet using it in the text, they turned it into YEHOVAH by an interesting procedure. Basically they took the vowels from the Hebrew word for "lord" which is Adonai, and inserted them into the name of God YHVH. So it becomes Y(a)H(o)V(a)H essentially. (By the way, the letter V is actually supposed to be pronounced as W in the original Hebrew, but I use the V sound as it is pronounced now, due to the European affect on the renewal of the language) In Yahovah, the first A is too far away from the stress, which in Hebrew is unnacceptable so it is transfered into a "non-vowel" which is a short "eh" sound. So it becomes Y'hovah - or in English - Jehovah. Another interesting morphology with Hebrew is how Jesus' Hebrew name relates back to Gods name. Jesus name in Hebrew is Yehshua. If you take the name of God which is YHVH, and insert the SH consonent into the middle you get YHSHVH. Now, in this case the V is converted into the "oo" vowel so we have YHSHUH. (the V sound converts into the "oo" and "oh" vowel often) Then we add the vowels to the name getting YAH SHU AH. The first A is condensed to a "eh" again and we get the final name of Yehshuah. Why does this matter you ask? I dont remember. I cant remember why, but according to Hebrew mystiscm, the SH letter would be the perfect finish to Gods name for some reason. Again, not sure exactly how it all works. Still very interesting. but did he not tell abraham that He was called "YHWH", or "I am"? how could one simply change that name for effect? yes, it is a clever puzzle and play on words, but would not the proper noun still be YHWH, since that is how He said it, what He said? it's like saying "God isn't flahy enough, from now on i refer to him as Godithera!!!" I think it's a little more complicated then that. This is just spinning off the top of my head, no knowledge involved, but maybe the idea is something like this: God knows everything out there in Eternity, right? But when he isn't inside time, so he didn't know time and humanity and pain and all that good stuff until he became human and entired time, thus making himself perfect. The reason this wouldn't ruin his omnipotence is that, since he is in Eternity, he is outside of time; So as soon as he existed, he already had "sent" himself as Jesus "into time," because he would send himself into time as Jesus. You get my meaning? And so, when Jesus was born, he perfected God, who was already perfect. i think it was something like this- God decided to come down and tell humans what he wanted. for a while, it worked. then, we forgot and God got pissed and blew up a few cities. then he decided to try again and sent down Jesus- to talk for him directly. now, i don't think jesus was God- because why would he refer to himself as his father, and why would he pray to himself, and refer to himself as a seperate entity with a seperate conciousness? anyway, he tried to tell everyone what he wanted. so, they killed jesus, jesus forgave them, and whatnot. skip forward 600 years, mohammed is praying in his cave. God wants to try one more time to get humanity to listen, so he sends down an angel to talk to mohammed. mohammed wigs out and goes on a killing spree. God hasn't bothered with us since.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:16 pm
Um, I was explaining the reason why Jesus' name would be the perfected version of God; Not explaining my whole view of it. In fact I said at the beginning that it was "spinning off the top of my head," and unsupported. And I wasn't saying that God went and sent Jesus to Earth -just- to perfect himself. I was just saying that that would be an explanation.
And just because God was always perfect doesn't mean that he was perfected by Jesus. I explained that. Since God exists in a single moment that always has existed, now exists, and always will exist, everything that has happened along the timeline has already happened for God. So if Jesus does something in the timeline, then he's already done it outside the time line, he is doing it outside the time line, and he will do it outside the time line.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:17 pm
And divine: So you believe in the clockmaker God? He set things in motion, and now he just winds it every once in a while?
I completely disagree; There are too many miracles happening every day for God not to be involved.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:23 pm
divineseraph i think it was something like this- God decided to come down and tell humans what he wanted. for a while, it worked. then, we forgot and God got pissed and blew up a few cities. then he decided to try again and sent down Jesus- to talk for him directly. now, i don't think jesus was God- because why would he refer to himself as his father, and why would he pray to himself, and refer to himself as a seperate entity with a seperate conciousness? anyway, he tried to tell everyone what he wanted. so, they killed jesus, jesus forgave them, and whatnot. skip forward 600 years, mohammed is praying in his cave. God wants to try one more time to get humanity to listen, so he sends down an angel to talk to mohammed. mohammed wigs out and goes on a killing spree. God hasn't bothered with us since. Just finished fully reading your post. I believe that the reason Jesus would call God "the Father," because he wasn't refering to Himself exactly, he was referring to God-Out-Of-Time. Since he was in time, but he was still outside time, it was simpler then trying to explain chrono-mechanics, the entirety of which are probably outside the grasp of the human mind anyways. And he didn't exactly pray to himself; Since he was both fully human and fully divine, he was sort of arguing with himself. He had human fears and pains, so he didn't really want to die. So he was basically steeling himself for what was about to happen. And remember that no one was right with Jesus when he was praying in the garden of (However you spell it). So no one can say what he was actually saying.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:26 pm
I.Am divineseraph i think it was something like this- God decided to come down and tell humans what he wanted. for a while, it worked. then, we forgot and God got pissed and blew up a few cities. then he decided to try again and sent down Jesus- to talk for him directly. now, i don't think jesus was God- because why would he refer to himself as his father, and why would he pray to himself, and refer to himself as a seperate entity with a seperate conciousness? anyway, he tried to tell everyone what he wanted. so, they killed jesus, jesus forgave them, and whatnot. skip forward 600 years, mohammed is praying in his cave. God wants to try one more time to get humanity to listen, so he sends down an angel to talk to mohammed. mohammed wigs out and goes on a killing spree. God hasn't bothered with us since. Just finished fully reading your post. I believe that the reason Jesus would call God "the Father," because he wasn't refering to Himself exactly, he was referring to God-Out-Of-Time. Since he was in time, but he was still outside time, it was simpler then trying to explain chrono-mechanics, the entirety of which are probably outside the grasp of the human mind anyways. And he didn't exactly pray to himself; Since he was both fully human and fully divine, he was sort of arguing with himself. He had human fears and pains, so he didn't really want to die. So he was basically steeling himself for what was about to happen. And remember that no one was right with Jesus when he was praying in the garden of (However you spell it). So no one can say what he was actually saying. well, yes, but the seem like two different people, sound like two different people... i mean, i guess i'm not christian then, i guess i'm more muslim- i believe in jesus as a prophet, as a great guy deeply connected to God, more so than anyone else ever. but i also believe that he was not God himself, just God's vice president, if you will...
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:35 pm
divineseraph I.Am divineseraph i think it was something like this- God decided to come down and tell humans what he wanted. for a while, it worked. then, we forgot and God got pissed and blew up a few cities. then he decided to try again and sent down Jesus- to talk for him directly. now, i don't think jesus was God- because why would he refer to himself as his father, and why would he pray to himself, and refer to himself as a seperate entity with a seperate conciousness? anyway, he tried to tell everyone what he wanted. so, they killed jesus, jesus forgave them, and whatnot. skip forward 600 years, mohammed is praying in his cave. God wants to try one more time to get humanity to listen, so he sends down an angel to talk to mohammed. mohammed wigs out and goes on a killing spree. God hasn't bothered with us since. Just finished fully reading your post. I believe that the reason Jesus would call God "the Father," because he wasn't refering to Himself exactly, he was referring to God-Out-Of-Time. Since he was in time, but he was still outside time, it was simpler then trying to explain chrono-mechanics, the entirety of which are probably outside the grasp of the human mind anyways. And he didn't exactly pray to himself; Since he was both fully human and fully divine, he was sort of arguing with himself. He had human fears and pains, so he didn't really want to die. So he was basically steeling himself for what was about to happen. And remember that no one was right with Jesus when he was praying in the garden of (However you spell it). So no one can say what he was actually saying. well, yes, but the seem like two different people, sound like two different people... i mean, i guess i'm not christian then, i guess i'm more muslim- i believe in jesus as a prophet, as a great guy deeply connected to God, more so than anyone else ever. but i also believe that he was not God himself, just God's vice president, if you will... Well that's all beliefs. I, of course, believe he was is and ever will be God the Son. And I'm firmly Catholic.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:42 pm
I'm protestant, by I.Ams beleifes. I couldn't agree with him more. Jesus was God in flesh. Not seperate. He refered to God as the Father because he was the Son, and he refered to HIm as He/Him probably so that his followers would not get confused. There are hundreds of book swritten on the trinity, not a single one completly agrees with the other.
How ever. There are three in one. God the Holy Spirit, the sculpture of our world, existnce. God the Father, the one who will great us at the Gate, and God the Son, Christ, the one who directs us down the path to the gate. They are sperete, yet one. Its extremly hard to explain...but I find it so easy to understand it frustrate sme some times.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:12 pm
There is a comandent in the Old Testament saying not to use Gods name in vein. Its more of a commandment than "honor your parents," which interestingly enough is NOT a commandment. (God told us that if we wanted long life, we should honor our parents. It isnt a direct commandment like "dont kill.") The Jews, scared of misuing Gods name, sought out multiple ways to avoid saying anything even remotely refering to Gods name. They used Adonai (lord) Elohim (God of Reverence) Hashem (The Name) and Jehovah to name a few.
YHVH does not mean "I am" in the direct sense. The way Hebrew words become verbs and the way they indicate point of view is by adding endings and modifying the based consonents. (Ex. BRK is the base letters for bless. If you say Baruckti it would be "I bless" I believe. Its been a while so it may not be exact.) So I am would be some sort of 3 letters modified to be a verb, most likely perfective form, with the 1st person point of view ending. So it would lilely be in the Pa'al verb form with the ti (or i I cant remember) ending. So YHVH couldnt mean "I am." I do not believe it has a meaning that we know of other than the name of God.
Yehovah is not a screwed up version of Gods name. It is an indirect way of refering to God without accidentally misusing his name. Of course to us, this is ridiculous, but you have to realize that to the Hebrew words are things. The hebrew word is I believe Devar, which is the same word for "thing." God spoke the universe into existance, not by actions, but by words. So to the Hebrew, using Gods name, the word that means God, is to be relegated to the most pertinant and neccesary circumstances.
Jesus, according to my beliefs, was God in human flesh. He refered to God as the father because a)his flesh was human, and we are the sons of God and b) Jesus was setting an example for us to follow. It is obvious by the New Testament that Jesus was God. He says "when you look at me, you look at the father" etc etc. Its all over the place. Personally, I believe that Jesus is God, is the Holy Spirit, is the Angel of the Lord to Abraham, is the burning bush to Moses, is the pillar of smoke by night and the pillar of fire by day, etc etc. I do not believe in a "holy trinity," the concept that God is one person but is divided into three manifestations. I believe God is God, and that is that. I believe his revelation to us is continueing, but God is not changing, never has and never will. I believe all of Gods manifestations are the same, God appearing to us through various means. I believe Jesus is an extremely important manifestation, but Jesus was God in flesh. It was as important that Jesus reveal to us the "new covenant" as God on mount sinah revealed the "old convenant" to Moses. Jesus is special because it replaced the old ways and opened us to the Holy Spirit, but the more I learn about Judiasm the more I believe that the Jews felt the Holy Spirit but did not know it. There is a Hasidic Jewish raggae rapper who knows nothing of Jesus and does not believe in him, yet his love and respect for God is amazing and powerfully fervent. To me, he feels the Holy Spirit even if he is not aware of it through our understanding of Jesus. Of course, I have alot of different ideas about my faith, so I cant say this is typical for others.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:24 pm
It sounds to me like you believe in the Holy Trinity. xd You named all of them in reference to God.
I think your way of believing in the Trinity is closer to my own; God is all of them, and all of them have always existed. It's not like Jesus was "created" for the "mission to Earth," he always existed. And there was no need to "create" Jesus, because he was somewhat like a limb of God; He is all God, but all human as well as long as he was "in time."
And the Holy Spirit is just God in spiritual existance everywhere. Kind of like where the Eternal God brushes the time line all along it, so that he is, spiritually, everywhere and everywhen.
And God exists as the Father outside of time in eternity.
They are just three different names and "persons" and functions for the same God.
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:55 pm
I.Am It sounds to me like you believe in the Holy Trinity. xd You named all of them in reference to God. I think your way of believing in the Trinity is closer to my own; God is all of them, and all of them have always existed. It's not like Jesus was "created" for the "mission to Earth," he always existed. And there was no need to "create" Jesus, because he was somewhat like a limb of God; He is all God, but all human as well as long as he was "in time." And the Holy Spirit is just God in spiritual existance everywhere. Kind of like where the Eternal God brushes the time line all along it, so that he is, spiritually, everywhere and everywhen. And God exists as the Father outside of time in eternity. They are just three different names and "persons" and functions for the same God. Right. But I also mentioned every other manifestation of God. I think they are all equally important as manifestations of God. Jesus was special because he renewed and changed the convenant, but it was still a manifestation of God. I guess what Im getting at is that I dont believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit should be revered as the "main three" manifestations. AND I really do not beleive there should even be a seperation - a distinction of the manifestations. IE Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, what is the point in grouping Jesus with God and the Holy Spirit? To me, its like saying "me, myself and I went to the store." For example, I wasnt babtized in "the father, son and holy spirit." I was babtized in the name of Jesus. If we say "father son and holy spirit" why dont we say "burning bush, angel of the lord, pillar of fire, etc?" Thats my personal religious belief however, and it doesnt change how you view it. I am just saying for me, I only worry about Jesus, Yeshuah, and I talk about the other manifestations and their importance, but not as a special grouping. I dont think its a serious point of course, and I especially do not think of it as a point to go to hell over! So essentially it doesnt matter. We dont really believe anything different, we just have different states of mind in regards to Gods manifestations.
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