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 Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:06 am
Like you said, with stats being so low, and others' promotion gains being so high:
Anything -> Sage (I think Homer pretty much caps everything important upon promoting and gaining a level or two without scroll abuse and don't tell me that you really need to worry about staff user's stats as them just using staffs make them very, very broken)
Sword/Axefighter -> Mercenary (all the starting Sword/Axefighters have beautiful growths anyway, so no need to scroll abuse)
Brigand -> Warrior (besides, what good would Marty do with CON, STR and DEF scrolls that Lara has do on him anyway? xD)
Lara is the prime person to scroll abuse and I have to bring this up yet again: eighty levels of scroll abuse opposed to forty/twenty limited levels of Pahn/Lifis? Clearly the winner is Lara here even if you make her into a Dancer, there's still sixty levels to work with which WILL guarantee near caps for everything even HP so it will be neigh impossible for her to get fatigued, and she'll still get to steal and dance to top it off (although Rogue promotion gains will guarantee total caps for everything).
And luckily there is usually only one Wind Tome user every chapter or so, and that's pretty much the reason why people "Steal", amiryte? So therefore Lara doesn't need a large inventory space anyway. Weapons are a man's job, you are to capture for the weapons, not steal. Also, it just so happens all the Knight Proof wielding soldiers are weapon users anyway if that's what you were thinking of stealing.
Like I said before, Pahn is a great unit, but for Lara's sake, and her sake only. I like to use him as a tool to make Lara even more broken, as with the two together, they are untouchable with his sword and the support the two share (for insta-win, make Nanna follow them around). I would still say Lara is better though for her insanely high stats she gets later on, she gets EXP easier than Pahn (Pahn is already promoted so he gets approx. half of what she gets) and has more flexibility to her (as in ways of training her- a Dancer, or an everything capping Rogue?)
Leveling-wise? If ranked run throughs aren't a big deal for a player, the chapter you get her is swarming with Vulnerary-holding soldiers for an easy EXP spree, also they just so happen to be weak enough for Makua to weaken and Lara to do the finishing blow for an easy level up, rinse and repeat for as long as you'd like (as the Fatigue system isn't in action yet), and bam, tank Lara from the get-go! Whereas with Pahn, as mentioned before, not only does he get half the EXP Lara usually gets, but he comes in the part of the game where leveling isn't so easy anymore so he'll have a harder time trying to beat Lara's almost guaranteed SPD growth whereas with Lara, she'll get an easy LV/SPD up a cherry picked kill to make up/recap her SPD.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:31 am
Staff users aren’t broken unless they have adequate weapon levels for their staves so they have access to the goodies that can make them broken. Also, it’s very desirable to have high Skl on your staff users so they don’t miss when you can’t afford for them to, in addition to high HP since staves can really eat up their stamina before fatiguing depending on what they’re using. So broken as staves may be in FE5, various staff users still want access the HP and Skl pumping scrolls at the very least (it’s not like they don’t want more Mag, either). Bear in mind that you’re implying that Lara is broken, but she’s relying on Scrolls herself. Potential for being broken is not exclusive from a desire to hold some scrolls.
And various infantry units most certainly do want scrolls, regardless of whether or not their growth distributions are good or not. Machua would greatly appreciate some Str, Def, and Build, Mareeta would LOVE more Def and Build, Shiva… technically doesn’t want scrolls as badly as the other two, he isn’t going to complain about added Def either. Othin may need some assistance in Def while Havan may need some for Skl. Not falling under either of these classes, Leaf definitely wants (if not needs) scrolls too so as to simply avoid being a liability with his less than fabulous promotion time combined with less than fabulous growths in various areas. Plus, really almost everyone benefits from more HP to avoid Fatigue more effectively (Mages particularly with so many of them starting with comparably paltry HP stats and growths). And if you’re going to be using Marty, he’s definitely going to be wanting scrolls (mainly Skl and Spd of course).
And mounted classes definitely want some scroll abuse, too. Brighton’s averages interesting don’t cap in anything across the board (although Def is at 19.9, so I guess that can be counted as close enough). Karin definitely wants more Str, Def, and Bld. Nanna, beloved as she is for her fabulous Charisma boost, wants Str, Mag, Def, and Bld (and while she caps Skl naturally, boosting it early on is still better for a staff user’s reliability). Olwen can benefit from all sorts of boosts (I prefer Olwen, fixer upper as she is – I’m biased and Dime Thunder is FIERCE) Hicks wants some more Spd, etc… point being, people want them some scrolls (and even when they don’t NEED them, having them makes them better faster).
I don’t know about most people, but I steal all sorts of things. Tomes (of all varieties – Wind may be the best, but I’m not picky), scrolls, and vulneraries are the most easily plucked, sure, but it should be noted that when you can steal weapons off someone, it means they become a free kill for whoever you want – that’s convenient. Stealing also provides experience without taking away with the sometimes limited pool of combat experience in chapters (considering this is FE5, there are plenty of times when you can deal with infinite reinforcements, but the point remains that stealing allows for more exp for your party overall). So inventory definitely helps.
Pahn and Lara are both good units, I agree. But there are plenty of reasons Pahn is a good unit that don’t revolve around Lara that I mentioned in my last post. And if you’re going to advocate abusing Ch 4, consider that you only have access to the Hezul and Baldo scrolls at that point (so scroll abusing her at that point is hardly going to yield fabulous results), and it’s not as if Leaf, Rifis, Machua, Brighton, Karin (although I’ll grant that Karin’s hardly of much use in that chapter), and Fergus aren’t up for holding scrolls themselves. Machua will kill a lot of the enemies before Lara gets a chance to off them herself, also (PCC of 3). Lara could still infinitely steal for the exp. But if you have to give someone that much favoritism for them to be fabulous at their job, do they really get to lay claim to the title of being the best as a result? That sounds like a detriment to me.
Also, abusing Ch 4 would hardly produce a tank Lara at that point even with carrying both Baldo and Hezul. At 20/--, some of her averages would as follows:
HP: 28.4, Str: 4.5, and Def: 4.5 (naturally, Spd would cap, though, so she does have that)
Slightly higher than Machua’s bases, basically. Machua is not a tank. But Marty’s pretty tankish I suppose. Marty’s bases at level one are higher in all three of those areas.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:39 am
I was more of implying on (Re)Warp Staff abuse, that make everything a breeze. Who cares about HP restoring staffs or even stamina in FE5 anyway when you can end a battle in a turn with (Re)Warp Staffs and rotate your next staff user for the next battle for rinse and repeat? As for Lara, I stay stubborn (sorry, I know it's redundant and annoying of me, but it's how I see it) to the 80 levels of love you get with her.
As for Makua and Mareeta, they really do not need scrolls as Mareeta gets a weapon which guarantees anything she comes to face will die as well as her Shooting Star Sword skill just for overkill, Makua-wise? Ehh, she was always second violin to Mareeta who I just covered (and has Est-growths anyway) and Shiva who is a fun fact that he has abnormal Raddy-like growths anyway. Also, with Othlin, Halvin, Galzus you're talkin' deploying around six Mercenaries and unless you really like them, that's just overkill, I personally just stick with an already overpowered Mareeta, beautiful growths Shiva, an emergency Makua and a very overpowered, buff and useful Lara.
Mounted-wise, eww, I never hated mounted units more since Monshou no Nazo. Nanna is my staff girl and like you said, Olwen is my Dime Thunder lady with the Ambush Manual girl, and that's it. Everyone else dismounts and in turn gets screwed over royally.
I guess I'm just a picky Thief xD I only really steal when the stores carry S. Drinks and I need to make a mad rush to earn gold, if the enemy carries rare magic/staffs which even an unabused scroll Lara should be able to steal without a hitch or when someone is dying and an enemy just so happens to be holding a Vulnery ripe for the picking.
Point taken for not scroll abusing her in Chapter 4, but you also get her earlier than Pahn (even if the Dancer "downgrade" screws with her stats), Pahn and Nanna should easily be able to grant her AVD to never get hit so she can level up easier than Pahn or Rifis who gets a measly support with Safy who really shouldn't be on the frontlines supporting him anyway.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:16 am
Alright alright...I'm a little tired of see walls of texts. You guys took up a whole page plus. I at least waited till Sunday to change the subject, though I'm not in the best of moods. The votes have been tallied and apparently we can't seem to totally agree on the best in this one. We have 2 winners. The next topic is up. Go vote and no more wall of text about Lara please. Thank you. I really don't want to be my moody self at someone.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:25 am
Best/Worst Victory conditions? Is that it?
Best: Defend position for x number of turns. Always challenging.
Worst: Beat chapter in x number of turns (for Gaiden chapters, like in FE6).
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:26 am
Whoops, I'm so sorry, Melethia, I'll be sure to save the next "epic debate" for the PMs or in my own threads ._.
Best: Rout (Any FE that is applicable)- I totally love massacring anything in my path without much of a thought.
Worst: Escape (Namely Thracia 776)- I feel so useless sort of running away from the oncoming army that is sure to slaughter me. emo not only that, but EVERYONE HAS TO ESCAPE BEFORE LEAF OR THEY "DIE/GET CAPTURED" UNTIL LATE GAME, but they're so underleveled when you get them back, they're not even worth using, and because you don't want that to happen you let the chapter to drag on more than it should (yes, I'm looking at you and your heavy armour, Dalsin. mad ) so everyone escapes.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:05 pm
xDemonhornzx Best/Worst Victory conditions? Is that it? Best: Defend position for x number of turns. Always challenging. Worst: Beat chapter in x number of turns (for Gaiden chapters, like in FE6).
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:16 pm
I really don't see the problem with discussing something in a thread that invites discussion, but alright, Mel. It's your thread. No walls of text, then.
Best: Defend X for __ turns
Worst: Escape
For best, I was largely inspired by the epicness that is FE10's 2-Endgame for being what I consider one of the most enjoyable, complex chapters in all of FE. There are excellent items to steal, but to steal them, you have to play very proactively while still covering your bases, you have highly limited options in characters to work with and lots of areas to try to cover, and it's fun to manage yourself in that chapter in such a manner that primarily feeds the units you're interested in using level ups. While that chapter is specifically my favorite for this sort of objective, all chapters like it have some of the things I enjoy about it in common. Plus, it's always exciting to accomplish everything in that chapter you need then to finish it early through killing the boss.
For worst, not many games feature 'Escape' chapters, but when they do, they're hardly the most enjoyable.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:30 pm
Best: Rout. As much as I love seize chapter goals--they're oh-so-wonderful for getting supports in-it gets boring just ending your turn over and over again. Rout makes you plan things out carefully to do everything you want to before you kill that last enemy--or he/she makes you kill him/her. Even more fun when the enemy throws a lot of enemies at you!
Worst: Escape. Never fun, always nerve-wracking in a bad way.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:41 pm
Manic Martini I really don't see the problem with discussing something in a thread that invites discussion, but alright, Mel. It's your thread. No walls of text, then. Best: Defend X for __ turns Worst: Escape For best, I was largely inspired by the epicness that is FE10's 2-Endgame for being what I consider one of the most enjoyable, complex chapters in all of FE. There are excellent items to steal, but to steal them, you have to play very proactively while still covering your bases, you have highly limited options in characters to work with and lots of areas to try to cover, and it's fun to manage yourself in that chapter in such a manner that primarily feeds the units you're interested in using level ups. While that chapter is specifically my favorite for this sort of objective, all chapters like it have some of the things I enjoy about it in common. Plus, it's always exciting to accomplish everything in that chapter you need then to finish it early through killing the boss. For worst, not many games feature 'Escape' chapters, but when they do, they're hardly the most enjoyable.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:48 pm
That's cool, Mel. Gives me something to look forward to next week.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:52 pm
Manic Martini That's cool, Mel. Gives me something to look forward to next week. I'll be sure to pick someone completely unlikely for being the best/worst next week then and come up with crazy, yet somewhat legit reasons to back me up for sure then next round. xD Even if we sort of made a tsunami of a debate, it was fun, I haven't had the honour to talk about that much Fire Emblem in a LONG time. :3
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:20 pm
Best: Route
Worst: Survive/Protect (also known as defend? Up to Mel's discretion.)
I hate the chapters, where... you only have a predetermined set of turns to do stuff in. (That said, Legault, your selection for worst isn't an actual requirement for victory, it's a requirement for additional gameplay. It does apply to FE10 though.) In FE10, the defend chapters were pretty good. Like FD said, that part 2 endgame was like blaahhhhhdfgdfgh whoayes, and then you have the return of the dawn brigade chapters that, while some hate them, were enjoyably challenging to me. But in other games, like FEs 7+8, you get chapters like protecting Duessel, holding out for Fargus' reinforcements, rescuing Nino and Jaffar (I think that's one), Merlinus' gaiden chapter, and surviving Vaida's onslaught when she's a boss. During these chapters... I want to do various things. There is exp out there and I am not allowed to go get all of it! Plus, there's not much need for survival, to me... just let me route the dang chapter, if it's this easy, please. And before I refined the precise way, it took me freaking forever to Get Vaida's uberspear before I ran out of turns. The Denning chapter was good, though. Overall, I just find that these chapters are keeping me from the exp they potentially have.
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:30 pm
Route: Route
Worst: Beat chapter in X turns
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:31 pm
Meh, in FE6 the doing in certain turns thing is a requirement for the final chapters, so I consider it a victory condition.
I like defend chapters just because of the challenge they offer. The game tosses you a fair chunk of meat just away from your bombarded position and you have to weigh risk and reward. It's also quite enjoyable to know you have a fortification and something to defend and the means to do so with a simple arrangement of your characters.
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