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 Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:47 am
Wotan Manasal Choukyuu Bushin Hakazan You just seem like you're desperately clinging onto the 'original' as if it would make you seem like a more dedicated or original fan. All it really means is that you're not confident enough to believe you can succeed without resorting to someone else's tried and true style. I agree with this. Also, I know I'll probably get flamed by everyone for this, but... I think the best Touhou official artist is Aya Azuma. Is it really weird that if I were to write something based of someone else's work, I'd stick totally to the source material, doing nothing that would disrupt the flow of continuity or change the status quo, and even insist that the artist draw in the same art style? I'd even have it where if it was a Touhou story that if a character had exposed legs the legs would be off-camera whenever drawing knees was unavoidable if the legs were to be shown.
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:30 pm
Asuka Hayata Is it really weird that if I were to write something based of someone else's work, I'd stick totally to the source material, doing nothing that would disrupt the flow of continuity or change the status quo, and even insist that the artist draw in the same art style? One thing is stating that as a personal preference of yours, and a totally different thing is bluntly saying "fan art, however well-drawn, is just fan art and is therefore less worth it and less important".
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:45 pm
Wotan Manasal Asuka Hayata Is it really weird that if I were to write something based of someone else's work, I'd stick totally to the source material, doing nothing that would disrupt the flow of continuity or change the status quo, and even insist that the artist draw in the same art style? One thing is stating that as a personal preference of yours, and a totally different thing is bluntly saying "fan art, however well-drawn, is just fan art and is therefore less worth it and less important". Sorry, I guess living alone has given me a habit of speaking my views in a somewhat blunt manner. sad
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:16 pm
I wish I lived alone. So jealous~
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:21 pm
Wotan Manasal I wish I lived alone. So jealous~ Living along is boring. What's worse is my apartment lease states only one person may live in my place. I can have guests, but not for an extended period of time. Doesn't help that I rarely win at games playing against online strangers. :/
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:36 pm
Wotan Manasal I wish I lived alone. So jealous~ {Eternally Young Scarlet Moon} Well, I am lord of the night, so please excuse me.______________________________ » » » » † † « « « «______________________________Too bad we're in a hurry. So, mind getting shot down right now? {Remilia Scarlet}
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Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:30 pm
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:53 pm
Asuka Hayata Is it really weird that if I were to write something based of someone else's work, I'd stick totally to the source material, doing nothing that would disrupt the flow of continuity or change the status quo, and even insist that the artist draw in the same art style? I'd even have it where if it was a Touhou story that if a character had exposed legs the legs would be off-camera whenever drawing knees was unavoidable if the legs were to be shown. Yes. You want to cling to the style so that people will see your work and consider it an extension of canon. If you're going to make a fan work, do it however you want, but forcing adherence to the 'official' art style is simply hoping to cash in on the real artist's success in passing off your work as official, whether you intend to or not.
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:59 pm
Choukyuu Bushin Hakazan Asuka Hayata Is it really weird that if I were to write something based of someone else's work, I'd stick totally to the source material, doing nothing that would disrupt the flow of continuity or change the status quo, and even insist that the artist draw in the same art style? I'd even have it where if it was a Touhou story that if a character had exposed legs the legs would be off-camera whenever drawing knees was unavoidable if the legs were to be shown. Yes. You want to cling to the style so that people will see your work and consider it an extension of canon. If you're going to make a fan work, do it however you want, but forcing adherence to the 'official' art style is simply hoping to cash in on the real artist's success in passing off your work as official, whether you intend to or not. Huh, I don't see it that way, I simply see it as being accurate. I try to pay close attention to detail. so if I wrote anything based off something I didn't make I would stick to what I knew very closely and do a lot of research to make sure everything I did was believable and avoid using or making fanon depictions of any kind. Not so that people would consider it canon, but so that it could be as well-written and well-drawn or well-painted or whatever as possible. Meaning as true to the source as I'm able to make it. Because being rigidly adherent to the source material is far more preferable than being like 4Chan's version of Alice Margatroid. If I sound like I'm torturing myself to imitate the creator of something, I'm not. For me, trying to closely imitate someone else's style when making work based off the person's work is fun, and ultimately, fan works are about fun.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:53 am
Asuka Hayata Huh, I don't see it that way, I simply see it as being accurate. I try to pay close attention to detail. so if I wrote anything based off something I didn't make I would stick to what I knew very closely and do a lot of research to make sure everything I did was believable and avoid using or making fanon depictions of any kind. Not so that people would consider it canon, but so that it could be as well-written and well-drawn or well-painted or whatever as possible. Meaning as true to the source as I'm able to make it. Because being rigidly adherent to the source material is far more preferable than being like 4Chan's version of Alice Margatroid. If I sound like I'm torturing myself to imitate the creator of something, I'm not. For me, trying to closely imitate someone else's style when making work based off the person's work is fun, and ultimately, fan works are about fun. Well drawn? In ZUN style? Okay. All the best print works didn't even use ZUN art. Hell, Fairy Wars doesn't use ZUN art, nor does IaMP or SWR(S). Those are all official depictions as well, since obviously ZUN had some input, so why stick solely to ZUN's style? It's really impossible to see it as any other way than trying to leech off ZUN's popularity to back your own work, which goes back to the point of not being confident enough to make something entertaining and interesting on your own. You can be accurate without attempting to recreate the author's own work. Fact of the matter is that if you try to stick explicitly to official depictions, any flaws in presentation will be even more noticeable,and they would be impossible to avoid when you're not the creator of the characters and series. Why would you take such actions to make sure it was 'believable'? Because you want people to assume that it could happen, right? So that it could seem plausible in canon. See how that flows right into that point there? It's not entirely a bad thing, a lot of people make things they'd like to be canon. The problem mostly arises from also wanting to mimic ZUN's style and writing, which no matter how you try to spin it, will never look like anything but attempting to make it look official. There is literally no other reason to have such rigid adherence to the artist's depictions other than to make it look less like a fan work and more like something created by the artist.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:36 am
Choukyuu Bushin Hakazan Well drawn? In ZUN style? Okay. All the best print works didn't even use ZUN art. Hell, Fairy Wars doesn't use ZUN art, nor does IaMP or SWR(S). Those are all official depictions as well, since obviously ZUN had some input, so why stick solely to ZUN's style? It's really impossible to see it as any other way than trying to leech off ZUN's popularity to back your own work, which goes back to the point of not being confident enough to make something entertaining and interesting on your own. You can be accurate without attempting to recreate the author's own work. Fact of the matter is that if you try to stick explicitly to official depictions, any flaws in presentation will be even more noticeable,and they would be impossible to avoid when you're not the creator of the characters and series. Why would you take such actions to make sure it was 'believable'? Because you want people to assume that it could happen, right? So that it could seem plausible in canon. See how that flows right into that point there? It's not entirely a bad thing, a lot of people make things they'd like to be canon. The problem mostly arises from also wanting to mimic ZUN's style and writing, which no matter how you try to spin it, will never look like anything but attempting to make it look official. There is literally no other reason to have such rigid adherence to the artist's depictions other than to make it look less like a fan work and more like something created by the artist. I can explain why I would want to copy ZUN's style of art and storytelling specifically. My story is set in a multiverse, my main characters are universe fixers. The worlds are a mix of original worlds, borrowed worlds (Touhou being one of them), and mashup worlds (multiple official incarnations, so I take different aspects of different incarnations and combine them into one). For borrowed worlds I would try to be as true to the source material, anything not from the source material would be written in such a manner as to be quickly disregarded, forgotten, or ignored by official canon but still something that could, unless it was the product of blatant tampering with the natural order, theoretically really happen in that world. And the art style would be as close to the most commonly used art style, ZUN's in this case. I even decided not to include Rinnosuke or his shop in form or mention, since he has neither appeared in-game or to my knowledge been drawn by ZUN. In fact the whole visit would be written with that approach, though even moments of blatant tampering and the work put out to fix the tampering would be regulated so like in pretty much any American TV show, cartoon, or comic book, once business was taken care of things could return to the way they were before. Because that's how universe fixers operate, they come when things are not as they should be, looking and acting just like a normal inhabitant of that world to blend in, fix things up to restore the status quo, and then either leave things to flow naturally or stay there in a non-intrusive manner if they desire to stay there longer since there is no "universe fixer homeworld". If, even with this explanation, you still question my preference to duplicate ZUN's approach even in art direction, oh well. It's a personal choice, based off the idea and approach that things really do look and sound as presented exactly as they do in the source material. ZUN DID do the art in most of the games, so his art style is the style I would have the artist copy. I can't change your mind, and you can't change mine. Any faults or flaws in the writing or art style I would make no attempt whatsoever to fix, because then it would not be an accurate style reproduction. I suppose I should put in a disclaimer that (hopefully) any flaws in art or writing style would also be there in the original work and that it just wouldn't seem as accurate without including the flaws.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:59 am
{Eternally Young Scarlet Moon} Well, I am lord of the night, so please excuse me.______________________________ » » » » † † « « « «______________________________Too bad we're in a hurry. So, mind getting shot down right now? {Remilia Scarlet}
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:03 am
Daughter of Tepes {Eternally Young Scarlet Moon} Well, I am lord of the night, so please excuse me.______________________________ » » » » † † « « « «______________________________Too bad we're in a hurry. So, mind getting shot down right now? {Remilia Scarlet} I know, I kept explaining, he kept questioning, so in order to end an argument of sorts that could potentially go on forever I tried to stop it by pointing out that nothing I said could change his mind, nor he mine.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:08 am
Then I guess you like Remilia's horribly mangled hands, Satori's chest-length arms, Sakuya's freakishly long thumbs and uneven arm lengths, Shizuha's dislocated and uneven legs, Minoriko's two left feet, Aya's super thin pointed finger and ultra fat middle finger on one hand, Sanae's broken thumb, Kanako's mutant hand, Ichirin's hands being two different sizes... Or, well, all the characters having horrible or deformed hands they never open. After all, if you're accepting the official designs as the pinnacle of canon and not changing them, then they have to all be present or else you're not being official enough. That was fairly good of you though, to admit to that even though I never asked about how you'd handle the flaws and inconsistencies in the official material. I was talking about any flaws you make in presenting it being noticeable, which they will be, since you're apparently a very poor judge. Not including Rinnosuke because he's not in a game or drawn by ZUN? Assuming that ZUN never drew even a reference for the artists behind CoLA (lolacronym) or PMiSS, he's been mentioned in two games and very obviously a canon character but oh, he doesn't actually have an 'official design', so he's simply excluded in order to prevent having to take even a minor amount of artistic license, ignoring of course that his appearance in either book had to have been greenlit by ZUN, meaning that he does actually have official art but, ah, whatever, right? Whatever interest I had in whatever you might be working on sure is gone now. Anything original that happens is just a fluke and 'unnatural' and so it needs to be corrected. It also directly conflicts with the idea of people staying behind in worlds they like, since if they correct every inconsistency that could be regarded as canon, then their existence within the world would have to be removed. After all, they're not canon characters either. Actually, come to think of it, they couldn't interact with anyone either, since that too would just be fanon in the end. You must be writing an epic multi-dimensional shaggy dog story then, because that's the only possible way I could see any of this going.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:48 am
Choukyuu Bushin Hakazan Then I guess you like Remilia's horribly mangled hands, Satori's chest-length arms, Sakuya's freakishly long thumbs and uneven arm lengths, Shizuha's dislocated and uneven legs, Minoriko's two left feet, Aya's super thin pointed finger and ultra fat middle finger on one hand, Sanae's broken thumb, Kanako's mutant hand, Ichirin's hands being two different sizes... Or, well, all the characters having horrible or deformed hands they never open. After all, if you're accepting the official designs as the pinnacle of canon and not changing them, then they have to all be present or else you're not being official enough. That was fairly good of you though, to admit to that even though I never asked about how you'd handle the flaws and inconsistencies in the official material. I was talking about any flaws you make in presenting it being noticeable, which they will be, since you're apparently a very poor judge. Not including Rinnosuke because he's not in a game or drawn by ZUN? Assuming that ZUN never drew even a reference for the artists behind CoLA (lolacronym) or PMiSS, he's been mentioned in two games and very obviously a canon character but oh, he doesn't actually have an 'official design', so he's simply excluded in order to prevent having to take even a minor amount of artistic license, ignoring of course that his appearance in either book had to have been greenlit by ZUN, meaning that he does actually have official art but, ah, whatever, right? Whatever interest I had in whatever you might be working on sure is gone now. Anything original that happens is just a fluke and 'unnatural' and so it needs to be corrected. It also directly conflicts with the idea of people staying behind in worlds they like, since if they correct every inconsistency that could be regarded as canon, then their existence within the world would have to be removed. After all, they're not canon characters either. Actually, come to think of it, they couldn't interact with anyone either, since that too would just be fanon in the end. You must be writing an epic multi-dimensional shaggy dog story then, because that's the only possible way I could see any of this going. 1. Yes, the flawed character designs would be there. Even the loli physiques, kneeless tube-legs, hands that look like opaque inflated flesh-colored rubber gloves, and crooked mouths positioned slightly off to the side. So what? 2. I guess Rinnosuke could be mentioned then, but it would visibly clash to have a non-ZUN-style design since Rinnosuke's ZUN drawing was apparently never released to the public. 3. If they stayed in any world they would, of course, have to look and act like natives of that world. Which would mean they wouldn't get noticed or stand out. >.> 4. Really? It doesn't take just as much or more creativity to accurately write in someone else's style as it does to to do stories 100% original in style? 5. Well, the protagonists would be guests in that world and have to look, act, and dress like someone from that world, and would also be subject to it's rules. They would even be redesigned to look native... outfit, visual style, and possibly even racial features, among other things. 6. You're judging my work before I even make it just because I choose to completely use someone else's style instead of allowing my imagination to run all willy-nilly when basing something off someone else's work? 7. So a little artistic license isn't allowed in the form of cooperating with the local heroes?
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